Tailoring /animal

[Sheawanna]

Had no intentions of posting , but feel its necessary .

I leveled as many crafting skills as a animal can /without un unanimaling ( is this word ? ) .
Why would you require Mollusc milk to do silk/textile for tailoring when no animal can milk ?
Seems you left out 1/3 of your population for leveling beyond 70 tailoring . (sad I say sad :( . )
Sure Wop , unless its used by how many peeps , how many snails in FR ? :) what about juices sure gather stacks for each animal . , ( no guarantee of crafting ranger ) .
What if your one of those animals that waits twice a years to gather those juices ? or even waiting for a darn bite ? then wait hours to turn ( no way they are gathering any milk :P ) . Why oh why tailoring require milk ? do not all hats require tailoring ? damn straight they do .. and who wears there so called lovely hats ? ( except the horrid bat not a lovely hat ) . We animals !!!! we cant milk / we can't play instruments nor are we loved :P ..
Tailoring is essential to all life , animals included . .. okay rant off ..

Damn I love PG :)

Love PG but can't gather wood either :) ( social distancing and all :P )

[Ranperre]

Agree with the above (I know multiple people who've complained about this before), and will add:

I want to quickly complain about snail milk in general. The issue is that it's so restrictive that it creates a bottleneck in the entire tailoring system. For the vast majority of other crafts, the bottleneck is vervadium or a special item (mercury, fae felt, we'll get to this in a bit). You can get 13.2 vervadium per day and most items require one vervadium or slightly more. So... you can make 10-13 items per day... unless you need to make basic tailoring items. Then you're limited by snail milk. 10 snails per 24 hours, an average of 6 fae silk per day, and some items require two fae silk per craft! It's so bad that it's easier to make nimble gear than normal non-special tailoring gear. This bottleneck isn't much of an issue right now because 80 gear is the endgame, but it'll become worse when people want to level past 80 (seriously, 3-6 crafts per day) or, god forbid, do work orders which have no possibility of offering more than 2-3k per craft (lol).

The current system is modestly better than the previous 4 snails/hr, but it will get really bad as we move to 90 and 100 cap.

[Vish]

but its tempolary system will be changed when more lvls limit will be unlocked

[Silkt]

I have for a long time said the 3 hour animal town timer is bullshit, now I think the whole list of animal restrictions need a complete design level review. I understand animal forms were originally intended to be difficult as they were a "Boss Curse". The only one that is truly a curse as only means of obtaining, baring the current event which I've never seen before, is Cow and to an extent bat, but it doesn't need a boss and is curable prior to form change.

My last position before retirement was as a Quality Manager, the rules of that job, is Plan, Do, Check and Act. In this case design document = plan, code = do, forum feedback, bug submission = check, code changes = act. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDCA

To me the first 3 stages are occurring but the 4th is only occurring on code errors, nothing is occurring as to whether the original design intentions are still suitable for what the project has evolved into.

[Coglin]

I do not understand how a You can claim that 1/3 of the community is left out of a crafting aspect, when you can clearly commissioned other players to farm those materials for you or purchase them from player vendors. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. it doesn't seem reasonable that you should get the benefits and boons of animal form and not have the drawbacks as well. If I am not in animal form and this do not have access to those bones and farm those materials to sell, then it is reasonable that I should reap the reward of such sales. On the same note as you have the boons of the animal forms, you are afforded the cost of purchasing the mats for me.

[Dumdidum]

The issue is that it's so restrictive that it creates a bottleneck in the entire tailoring system..
From what i understand from bits of chat of Jack ingame, the goal here is to make having endgame gear, especially the yellow ones, really really hard. Only for the most stubborn crafters/players. As such i think i understand what they are trying to do here.
On the other hand, i never was a huge fan of dailies. And they start to add up in this game as well. Daily runs for silk, daily runs for yellow glowing crystals, daily runs for dungeons or elites. Granted, i am in no way forced to do them, and some of it can be offset by simply earning money a different way and buy it all. Still, no fan of such mechanisms. I rather have the droprate of needed materials made more rare, so the grind would take as long as the devs want it to take overall.

[Sheawanna]

This does not just effect tailoring BTW, its also toolcrafting spring fairy gear .
Spring fairy gear always used leather rolls n strips . Now it need fae silk .
Saying, just buy it from players shops ? roflmao I did just that 30 fae silk for over 200k ( in reality only gives me 15 tries as many recipes use 2 fae silks ).. Price gouging anyone ? Yep stick it to the animals :P

Benefits of being a animal do not equate to the drawbacks ( none of which I am complaining about with the exception of milking snails , which animals CANNOT do ) While on the subject of milking , Why CAN'T animals milk ? We nurse our young just as you humanoids do (we don't needs hands for that ) . Have you seen the size of those snails ? geez even the hefty cow could nurse those things :)

You bards with your fine tales , your spinning and wails . proclaim all is a fuss ? be wary of the mighty gusts :)

[Coglin]

Saying, just buy it from players shops ? roflmao I did just that 30 fae silk for over 200k ( in reality only gives me 15 tries as many recipes use 2 fae silks ).. Price gouging anyone ? Yep stick it to the animals :P

I do not understand what you are trying to say here. You list a nominally low cost of Fae Silk. Are you trying to make my point or support it? or ar you suggesting because it is not worth that value to you that your complaint is not particularly serious or important to you?



Benefits of being a animal do not equate to the drawbacks

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion for that of objective fact. you are literally relating an obviously subjective perspective as if it was a subjective fact.
You get combat benefits in an animal form with no combat drawbacks.



While on the subject of milking , Why CAN'T animals milk ? We nurse our young just as you humanoids do (we don't needs hands for that ) . Have you seen the size of those snails ? geez even the hefty cow could nurse those things :)

Can you show me a clip or scene in-game of an animal nursing their young in this game? Or evidence in lore that it occurs or works this way in this world?

So in a game in which you can shoot fireballs out of your hands, you want to use real-world logic as your argument for a change? So you are okay setting logic aside that you can turn to a cow, but want physics warped so that you can milk yourself? I would appreciate if you could justify the contradiction here?



You bards with your fine tales , your spinning and wails . proclaim all is a fuss ? be wary of the mighty gusts :)

As much as I appreciate the attempt, us bards prefer you do more then just rhyme. We actually prefer you are saying something of value or making a statement.

[Sheawanna]

Using real world already exists within the game ( humanoids milking cows is that not what we do in RL ?
As for combat benefits already exists for both animal and non animals .
Again you say bards do more then rhyme ( great awesome , maybe I should offer you a cardboard cookie )

What I am saying unequivocally is that mollusk milk is a issue for all , by far more so for some animals then for others !!!!
All facts and not some rhyme !!!

[ShieldBreaker]

Please keep it calm and civil. :)

There are 2 or 3 other ways to loot fae silk other than making your own, ways that are open to animals. The demand is high because everyone at the high levels are grinding crafting, and making top end gear, once most people are beyond it the demand will probably level off. Probably find even more of it in used tabs. We don't have an overview of the data or info on planned areas so it is difficult to know if there are going to be workarounds or an eventual glut of fae silk or the ingredients to make it on the market.

[Coglin]

Using real world already exists within the game ( humanoids milking cows is that not what we do in RL ?

Yeah, "some" real-world rules apply, such as milk comes from cows. None the less, it is intellectually dishonest to suggest game changes or game aspects should be designed around reality when you want milk, but fantasy when you want to shoot magic from your fingertips and destroy something with fire or run fast with psychic power. It certainly is not consistent to want different rule sets of the game to be changed in some ways for your personal convenience.




What I am saying unequivocally is that mollusk milk is a issue for all , by far more so for some animals then for others !!!!
All facts and not some rhyme !!!

it is? You are unequivocally incorrect. I have literally hundreds of Fea Silk. Multiple members of my guild have hundreds of fae Silk. I mean, sure, if you have an opinion or perspective, discuss it, but it doesn't help the discussion to dishonestly claim to speak for others, especially "everyone"...

[poulter]

You might want to consider that animal forms are very much 'work in progress' and their design has evolved over the years.
In 2016, best healing class was pig, best tank was a cow.
Only Citan knows what happens next.

Originally, animal forms were intended to be curses.
Then they became forms for experienced players (level 40+).

Make polite suggestions of changes you want and Citan might just deliver it one day or year.

[Sheawanna]

First off RL skills already exist within the game already . FACT . the fact that I suggest nursing so animals can attain certain things , does not equate to me wanting things to be like RL :) . Nor am I wanting animals to be OP . But the fact is animals have far more hardships then humanoids . You can spout all the benefits all you like . I've played numerous non animal combat skills . And every single animal .. I know the benefits and the drawbacks . I get it ! animals lives are harder . I have no issue with most if not all of those drawbacks . But the FACT that all Tailoring and even some toolcrafting requires fae silk does not make it fair . ( I don't require fair in game play ) . but the determents are now (IMHO) leaving out a sect of players . You may disagree that's fine your entitled to your opinion . You want to say give you example of RL in game I Gave top one there are far more . yet you still want to instigate things . My greatest apologizes for wanting to give you a cardboard cookie ..

My guess is anything outside of your thoughts are simply illusions !!!
Lets agree to disagree and move on :)
I am not asking for no ruleset change :P Get it animals don't have hands , but we have mouths which I will use :P

[Coglin]

First off RL skills already exist within the game already . FACT . the fact that I suggest nursing so animals can attain certain things , does not equate to me wanting things to be like RL :) .

I agree that does not equate to you wanting things to be like real life, you literally used real-life nursing comparisons to justify demanding real word rule see apply in this specific demand you desire.



Nor am I wanting animals to be OP . But the fact is animals have far more hardships then humanoids . You can spout all the benefits all you like . I've played numerous non animal combat skills . And every single animal .. I know the benefits and the drawbacks . I get it ! animals lives are harder . I have no issue with most if not all of those drawbacks . But the FACT that all Tailoring and even some toolcrafting requires fae silk does not make it fair . ( I don't require fair in game play )

Fair? You appear to me to feel what is fair revolves around your personal wants here. You want the physical damage mitigation of cow, that no other class has access to anything resembling that benefit. It is fair that no other class has that, but not fair that those without access to it can get mollusk milk.

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion for that of actual objective fact. You literally use the word "fact" as you go on to share your opinion of what is fair. That doesn't seem to me as if you are seeking balance or well being of specific classes at that point.




. but the determents are now (IMHO) leaving out a sect of players . You may disagree that's fine your entitled to your opinion . You want to say give you example of RL in game I Gave top one there are far more . yet you still want to instigate things . My greatest apologizes for wanting to give you a cardboard cookie ..


You actually literally didn't give any functioning real-life comparison that exists. Though I think you missed my point. My point is that it is not particularly logical to cite real-world logic as a source of reasoning to make design discussions in a fantasy game in which real-life limitations do not apply.

As to your "cardboard cookie" reference, I do not know what you are trying to say or mean with that.




My guess is anything outside of your thoughts are simply illusions !!!
Lets agree to disagree and move on :)
I am not asking for no ruleset change :P Get it animals don't have hands , but we have mouths which I will use :P

Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you only has "thoughts that are simply illusions"? Because I disagree with you that animals should have access to milk mollusk my thoughts on the matter are illusions?

Cow gets
Max Health +275, Max Power +85, Crushing Damage Reduction +10, Piercing Damage Reduction +10, Slashing Damage Reduction +10 and cannot milk mollusk.

Almost all non-animal forms get
Max Health +200, Max Power +95, and can milk mollusk.

If those benefits are not worth not milking mollusk then get out of animal form and do not play an animal form?

[alleryn]

Cow gets
Max Health +275, Max Power +85, Crushing Damage Reduction +10, Piercing Damage Reduction +10, Slashing Damage Reduction +10 and cannot milk mollusk.

Almost all non-animal forms get
Max Health +200, Max Power +95, and can milk mollusk.

The milk mollusk has to do with what form you are in. The max health and power have to do with what skill you have equipped, which is a separate decision.

Of course you must be in cow form to equip Cow skill, but that also puts Cow skills on your skill bar instead of some (potentially more or less valuable) skill. A cow with Mentalism/Warden (say) equipped doesn't get any max health bonus over a humanoid.

So i feel like you are conflating things a bit here.

[Coglin]

The milk mollusk has to do with what form you are in. The max health and power have to do with what skill you have equipped, which is a separate decision.

Of course you must be in cow form to equip Cow skill, but that also puts Cow skills on your skill bar instead of some (potentially more or less valuable) skill. A cow with Mentalism/Warden (say) equipped doesn't get any max health bonus over a humanoid.

So i feel like you are conflating things a bit here.

Yeah, you can only use warden in animal form. Hence the boon of access to warden. When in beast form with that beast skill on your bar you get the boon of the option of warden and the benefits of the specific form. Honestly, I feel like the point you made really just re-enforces my point.

[alleryn]

Honestly, I feel like the point you made really just re-enforces my point.
Maybe using warden as an example muddied the waters.

Look at it this way (i'm not trying to weigh in on the overall pros/cons of being an animal here, only attempting to address the argument that being a cow gives you an advantage over a humanoid because of the raw stats):

A cow with mentalism/psych has no stat bonuses over a humanoid, but still has the milking penalty.

To get the stat bonuses you have to take Cow skill. So then you have to ask not do the stat bonuses outweigh the inability to milk / other drawbacks of animal form, but do the stat bonuses on Cow/X outweigh the inability to milk/etc drawbacks on Skill combo X/Y.

I know this probably isn't the clearest explanation, but i think there was some kind of logical void in there that i wanted to address.

To me it really isn't clear that a cow has a combat advantage over a humanoid since i don't really believe the Cow skillset to be the strongest one. I feel like the max health on the cow might not contribute enough to make up even for the "superior" skill a humanoid gets to choose, before you even get to the non-combat drawbacks. Or maybe it does, i don't know.

[Coglin]

Maybe using warden as an example muddied the waters.

Look at it this way (i'm not trying to weigh in on the overall pros/cons of being an animal here, only attempting to address the argument that being a cow gives you an advantage over a humanoid because of the raw stats):

A cow with mentalism/psych has no stat bonuses over a humanoid, but still has the milking penalty.

To get the stat bonuses you have to take Cow skill. So then you have to ask not do the stat bonuses outweigh the inability to milk / other drawbacks of animal form, but do the stat bonuses on Cow/X outweigh the inability to milk/etc drawbacks on Skill combo X/Y.

I know this probably isn't the clearest explanation, but i think there was some kind of logical void in there that i wanted to address.

To me it really isn't clear that a cow has a combat advantage over a humanoid since i don't really believe the Cow skillset to be the strongest one. I feel like the max health on the cow might not contribute enough to make up even for the "superior" skill a humanoid gets to choose, before you even get to the non-combat drawbacks. Or maybe it does, i don't know.


Yes, but in cow form, since that seems to be a running example here, you have the boon of self milking and exponential access to milk that humanoids do not have. So by the arguments thus far, humanoids should be able to draw bottles of milk from thin air for themselves as well for equivalency. So cows can either milk themselves or mollusk. Both are an unreasonable boon to cow form.

As to your reference to the cow skill being active itself, you suggest the combat advantage really isn't clear, yet I literally listed the stat differentials. The physical resistance to crushing, slashing and piercing combined with 75 more hit points over humanoids is a vast combat advantage in my opinion.

[alleryn]

As to your reference to the cow skill being active itself, you suggest the combat advantage really isn't clear, yet I literally listed the stat differentials. The physical resistance to crushing, slashing and piercing combined with 75 more hit points over humanoids is a vast combat advantage in my opinion.
You still haven't responded directly to my point, which i've mentioned twice now (really the only point i've made), namely that to get this cow stat benefit you also need to put Cow skill on your skillbar, which may or may not outweigh the stat bonuses.

[Roccandil]

From a lore/world perspective, if sentient animals needed something, I'd think they'd go about getting it their own way, not the way of humanoids.

So, based on the world of PG, I could see the sentient animals devising their own versions of crafting skills, customized for their own needs. :)

[Sheawanna]

if as you state Sentient animals feel or perceive thing's , one should be able to just as humanoids should feel or perceive things . there would be a way to do so !!! . for instance ( strictly a example of being able too . kodan offers blacksmithing for animals ,just as elaina offers tailoring ) . So for animals to developed there way , one needs a NPC to do so . If its only via a humanoid way , what way is there ?

[Coglin]

You still haven't responded directly to my point, which i've mentioned twice now (really the only point i've made), namely that to get this cow stat benefit you also need to put Cow skill on your skillbar, which may or may not outweigh the stat bonuses.

I replied to your point. I pointed out how being an cow form offers the boon of access to warden whether you use the cow skill set or not. so animal forms without using the animal skill set on their bar still have the excessive bone of access to warden whereas humanoids do not. previously addressed this on more than one occasion so I'm a little confused as to how you suggest I did not address your point. Secondly, nothing is stopping you from exiting and re-entering the form in order to milk the mollusks.