Lemon Event Feedback

[Deldaron]

Hey I wanted to pop in and give my two cents on this event since the randomness was added. Conceptually I like the idea of a little randomness, it means I'm not just going to wait until someone posts the good ones in event talk in discord, rush those and call it a day. It means I have to be more engaged if I want something specific from which is lovely. However, I elected to skip this event because of what I interpreted to be the way this random mechanic was implemented: sampling with replacement.

(Aside I could be completely wrong in which the next four paragraphs are moot and I would love to be wrong - if an admin is reading this and I'm wrong please respond!)

What does that mean and why did it push me away?

In sampling with replacement, you imagine the reward pool for a given set of lemons as an assortment of buffs/debuffs/items inside a bag. In this case there are 9 items in the bag. You reach in and grab one item. Let's say this bag has the shiny new title in it somewhere, but also some shitty things like death WoP. From the first draw you have a 1/9 to get the smexy title. But instead you get death which also has a 1/9 chance. Now the difference b/t sampling with and without replacement happens here, in sampling with replacement you put the item you drew (death WoP) back in the bag. This is a key difference because that means when you go to the second lemon and draw you have a 1/9 chance of drawing the smexy title yet again and an equal 1/9 chance of getting the Death WoP again.

Now you might be thinking okay you have 1/9 odds so if there are 9 lemons you have at if not near 100% chance of getting the title right? And because I didn't get it the first 8 tries my odds should be better on this last lemon? But that's the gambler's fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy and if each item in the bag is unique then not only do I still have the same odds at the end as the odds I started with I also know I am equally likely to get the Death WoP every single time as I am to get any other specific sequence of draws.

I would prefer sampling without replacement - which means every time I pull something out of the bag it stays out of the bag. And this doesn't mean that I can only get death WoP a single time, there could be 3 in the bag! Imagine a bag with 1 title, 3 death WoP, and 4 sticky lemons, and 2 buffs. In this case lets say there are only 9 lemons of this lemon pool. The first lemon I draw I have a 1/10 chance of getting the title, but a 4/10 chance of a sticky lemon. I could still go all 9 times w/out getting the title sure, but each time I get something else my odds go up until the last draw where I'm at a 50% chance of getting the title. The point here is that I know that each lemon I get a crap outcome on increases my odds of getting a good outcome later, even if I don't get the outcome I want.

For me the concept of unchanging odds are a turn off. Also I might have made this up but I've inferred that these type of events are running about once a quarter so if I chase after something I want all weekend and don't get it I'm staring a 4 month time gate in the face - a position I'd rather not put myself in. I understand sampling w/out replacement is probably a harder system to implement and I want to make it clear that I do enjoy the direction this is going, I just would like to make the position for what I think would be an improvement. It would still give a sense of randomness to each lemon, it would still force engagement with the event and not just waiting for someone else to do the work and snatching the good rewards. And it could still be set up in a way where there's no guarantee you'll get the smexy title or the hawt black dye, but not set up in a way where your odds of getting the title are MUCH lower than your odds of not. If the event has been set up this way then I would love something in the event wording that expresses that, but from asking around about what people got as rewards I'm guessing it's setup the other, probably easier to implement method.

Another request that I think is a much smaller ask - and this one goes out to Greenberg. I think in events like this where they are infrequent and your chances are up to the RNG gods and limited titles should be title scrolls. The reason I push for this is, while I didn't want the lemony fresh title, I know that odd sentient pile of lemons in a deer costume did and I believe didn't get it. If it were a scroll, there's a back up - someone who doesn't want it turns it into a super expensive item that veterans that do want can buy. Or it goes in a RT raffle. Or a kind soul gives it to someone who wants it more.

Final thoughts, this is a cute event and I love how an in game meme turned into a regular event and I appreciate the work that goes into it and I do think adding randomness is a nice touch :) keep it up and thank you!

[Tamiq]

I like your ideas, Deldaron. I enjoy the difficulty of finding the lemons, but having a limited set of items/effects would likely keep me hunting longer, especially if I got a run of bad ones.

[Glythe]

Hey I wanted to pop in and give my two cents on this event since the randomness was added. Conceptually I like the idea of a little randomness...

I would prefer sampling without replacement - which means every time I pull something out of the bag it stays out of the bag.

For me the concept of unchanging odds are a turn off.


Have to agree with pretty much everything here except for the part about a scroll. I feel like you should have to participate in the event to get the title. That being said - if you got all the lemons it should have been impossible to not get the title.

This event was better than the last lemon event because everyone knew which lemons gave the goodies. But the last event was better because the rewards were fixed. Combine the two and lemons 3.0 can be just right.

Decide how many good and bad rewards there are for the whole event and place that number in the 'loot bag'. It is silly that one person could do this event and get 3 dye and 4 loot keys - while the person doing the event with them gets no loot and a ton of debuffs.

That is not to say - give a fixed formulaic loot result (everyone gets 1 coitus buff, 1 legendary loot lemon, 1 black dye, 1 purple dye, 2 loot keys etc.) but rather everyone gets roughly the same number good and bad loots. It would be fine if player one got a black dye while player two got a purple dye as somethings should be left to chance. But it seems silly if you complete the event on multiple characters and you realize that your third character got more loot than two of your other characters combined.

I feel like the concept behind the scrambled brewing recipes would work wonders here. In short I see some people doing the event and getting almost nothing and other people are getting 4 dye events and about the same number of keys. To put this in brewing terms some people are getting to brew high tier recipes with apples and other people are forced to use bananas.

In other words.... make sure everyone ends the event with the same number of good loot events (if they get every lemon) but randomize where the 'good reward events' are located.

[Vish]

i hate Random in each game in each evant

my sugestion is to do similar event semi-random
EG.
if
there are 100 lemons that give 100 items/buff/exp/WoP/debuff
then
each lemon give randomly those reward ONCE
so if you find 100% lemons then u get 100% of possible rewards
if you get only 90 then you get 90 unique rewards from pool

[Glythe]

I want to say thank you for hosting the lemon event! It was a nice break from all the other things you have to do in the game.



there are 100 lemons that give 100 items/buff/exp/WoP/debuff
then
each lemon give randomly those reward ONCE


It could be something as simple as there are 150 options for the lemons. You get X number of good and Y number of bad events. I think people are having an issue with this event because some people are getting way more bad than good or vice versa.

I think it is better with some random element - because then they can give us nice prizes like royal purple/black dye instead of just low tier garbage 'rare' things that nobody wants. But I would agree this version is far too random.

The problem with fixed event lemons is that after you get the rewards you want then you will stop. Say for example someone made a master list for lemons and the good prizes were #22 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=22) , 44, 57 and 81. If you got all four valuable rewards most people would immediately stop. But I have to say a fixed good/bad ratio would be more fun than this version because one of my characters made out like a bandit and some of the others got almost nothing.

[Niph]

The way the event is currently set up is an incentive to do it fully. If you knew there is exactly one interesting reward, and you got it early in the event (say, on the first lemon), then you wouldn't bother with the rest. It would be only bad stuff for you. But with a random reward, you have a chance to get it multiple times so you want to find every lemon.

The only exception are rewards you don't care to get more than once, for example a title, but that's the only example I can think of.

So, in fact, this design is better for the player as they have a chance to get what they want several times. And it's certainly better than the previous event for which I just checked the couple lemons I wanted.

The event design can be improved. For instance, there could be one guaranteed reward (the title) and the lemon where you find it would be one of the last you check. This way people that really work on the event would be rewarded for their effort.

[Deldaron]

The way the event is currently set up is an incentive to do it fully. If you knew there is exactly one interesting reward, and you got it early in the event (say, on the first lemon), then you wouldn't bother with the rest. It would be only bad stuff for you. But with a random reward, you have a chance to get it multiple times so you want to find every lemon.

The only exception are rewards you don't care to get more than once, for example a title, but that's the only example I can think of.

So, in fact, this design is better for the player as they have a chance to get what they want several times. And it's certainly better than the previous event for which I just checked the couple lemons I wanted.

The event design can be improved. For instance, there could be one guaranteed reward (the title) and the lemon where you find it would be one of the last you check. This way people that really work on the event would be rewarded for their effort.

I do like the idea of having the title be triggered by "doing all or x% of the lemons", but I also think our points aren't mutually exclusive for your first paragraph. You can have a sample pool larger than the number of lemons in the game. So lets say there are 5 lemons but the pool has 2 black dye, 4 sticky lemons, 2 post coital bliss', and 2 death WoP. You can still get the shiny thing more than once, up to a hidden limited number of times. Players wouldn't be able to immediately suss out the sample pools b/c a lot of players would have to work together and compare outcomes, plus there are multiple pools with overlap.

Also I challenge that the design is better for the player - it _could_ have higher pay off, but that is because for many other players it'll have no pay off at all.

[Glythe]

I feel most people in the end game crowd did not go searching for the lemons blind. They likely waited until there was a map and just went around clicking in the right spots.


So lets say there are 5 lemons but the pool has 2 black dye, 4 sticky lemons, 2 post coital bliss', and 2 death WoP. You can still get the shiny thing more than once, up to a hidden limited number of times.

Also I challenge that the design is better for the player - it _could_ have higher pay off, but that is because for many other players it'll have no pay off at all.

The essence of bad design is that some players will have no pay out and others will get everything. It is fine to have the rewards spread out by RNG but the lootbag for this event should be pretty fixed (with the possibility of a few +/- here or there). If there are 30 lemons everyone should get like 13 good, 13 bad and have the rest be swing events that can go either way. With that limited rng there is still room for differences in quality of rewards. It is fine for one person to get a black dye while the next person gets a purple dye. It is not ok for player one to get three or four dyes while player two gets zero dyes.

[Niph]

The essence of bad design is that some players will have no pay out and others will get everything. (...) It is not ok for player one to get three or four dyes while player two gets zero dyes.

Hu? As long as odds are the same, I certainly disagree that it's bad design. Coming from someone who didn't get the Black Dye and the Legendary loot bonus (but got the title, ha!). It could be bad design to put some lemons in area only some players can access, like the Warden secret cave.

In this instance, some lemons were hard to get to, in Gazluk and the Fae Realm for instance. But that's no different design than the basics of a MMO.

[Sheawanna]

Agree Niph , Never got title or black dye got plenty of other dye plenty of buffs and a handful of sticky feet . I find it balanced , and sure had I decide to go hunt them all down might have got more .. Did get gender studies/civic pride which I find more beneficial then any title :)

[ProfessorCat]

I understand my opinion goes against the consensus, and I mean no offense to anyone's feedback or experience, however I believe this event was solid.

I joined on the initial rush and also joined the Lemon Finding Chat. This was a cool way to interact with the community, and I was still able to hunt for the lemons completely solo. I didn't get black dye, and I didn't get the title.

The way this event was set up, I now have a reason to do the event next time, assuming it follows the same suit.

There are a lot of green text titles in game. A ton of them, and they're fun to collect.

The only way I think this event would not be worth my time is if the same title was a guaranteed prize every few months, or if the title remains RNG based AND if the title changed every time we had new lemons.

For now I look forward to getting the Lemony Fresh title in a few months.

[Glythe]

Hu? As long as odds are the same, I certainly disagree that it's bad design.

My sample size is obviously limited but I can look at the people I ran through parts of this event with and share what I saw. One of my friends ran his main character through all the maps and got 3 dye events and at least 2 if not 3 keys. Another person got basically a buff here or there but no keys no title and no dye. That is messed up. My conclusion overall is that this lemon formula is too random and generates less than fun feelings.

I think it is fine to do an event like this where there is some randomness with the prizes but I would much rather see a limit on the good and bad events. As an example what if you were expected to have 2 dye events in 80 lemons but you could have plus or maybe minus one (noting that if you got a minus one then you got something potentially better like a legendary lemon buff). In other words if you get 80 lemons you will get 2 dye events - unless you get a "better" prize as replacement for one of those events. But this would mean you cannot get 4 dye and you cannot get 12+sticky events.

The odds were even for everyone and yet one player who really loves lemons did not get the title. Oops! This is the hallmark of too much chance and in this case I think it made the event stupid. I know some people were rather sour at the lemon event after getting nothing for 60 lemons. Remember that one bad event can make people realize they might be better off just skipping the next one. And that is a dangerous idea.



I am not sure what kind of tools we have available for this game but maybe we could have some checks? Would something like this work:

If no title has been achieved by 30 lemons have an event for a % chance at the title. If no title has been achieved by 60 lemons have a greatly increased chance for the title. If no title has been granted by 80 lemons have a 100% chance for the title. If title has been achieved - ignore this rule.

Do the same for the dye, keys etc (if possible). If no dye at 25 lemons have a % increase to get dye on 25th lemon (etc). If 2 dyes have been received decrease chance of more dye. If 3 dyes have been granted - remove dye from possible loot pool.

[Glythe]

I want to make one more suggestion here with events and sidebar bonuses.

Can we make gur-hortas and other sidebar bonuses add a second row of sidebar parallel to the current side bar?

Adding a new parallel bar would help the gui nice and neat.

If I have some characters with 2 extra side bars, some with zero and some with 5+ it makes every character not able to use the sidebar until I move it to a new position (and then when I switch characters I have to move it again).

[Greenberg]

Overall I love the event but unfortunately I ran into a few problems one being the Lemon placed in the Elt Crypt. This made me believe all dungeons may contain Lemons so I spent many hours combing nearly every dungeon for one. One other problem is the Lemons in the middle of no where on average these weren't exactly fun to find and they opened up the possibility that they could be in any square meter of the map. They don't have to be on a "landmark" maybe something "eye catching" nearby.

I believe a RNG reward system can be a fun and interesting concept but at the same time it can be very cruel. Players could receive absolute gold while others struggle to get dirt and the rewards themselves are relative to the player. For an example I don't see a mentalist who has invested into psi power wave would have much need for a one power per second buff but for me with the most nerfed bird form in the whole game it's greatly needed.

Even the player's opinion can determine what this "gold" is. After finding all the Lemons I got 1 coital bliss, 2 black dyes, 2 royal purple, 4 gender studies, 4 keys, 6+ legendary loot buffs, 8+ 1 power per second, heaps of others buffs and very little negatives. Some people would be envious what I got but for me personally I would trade twice the amount for the title.