Random Balance thoughts

[Glythe]

I want to make a thread about things that seem a little one sided. Feel free to add to the discussion about things that seem broken/unfair.

[Glythe]

Racial bonuses : Humans are OP.

Compare Elf Vs Human - you're a chump if you pick elf.

If you are in a group as a human your xp bonus never wears off because you have that community thing. Meanwhile an elf gets very dirty very quickly; you need to wash off in water or use the cleaning recipe (3 inventory slots for: human hair cleaning cantrip).

This may seem like a small gripe but the xp difference is pretty big. I fell behind 2.5 levels behind my friend as an elf who was human when we played together from 25-50. I played more hours than him and was constantly behind on xp. He got to 50 when I was still 48 in both classes. This is less of an issue in certain zones because you can occasionally clean off in water.

Suggested changes: Make elves get dirty much slower. At level 80 I can get dirty in under 15 minutes. If this were closer to an hour it would feel a lot better. Humans can fight out alone for an hour before the community penalty kicks in. Humans running through gazluk keep for example in a group of 6 people get the bonus xp for a full run (which can be 2-4 hrs). Moreover the Elven cleanliness display gives you a huge penalty if you are dirty. Can we change this please? Maybe we could change the display to increase the time it takes for you to get dirty as a % and remove the part about being dirty reduces xp?


Humans have a really nice stat earring as one of the christmas presents. I have never seen an elf naval ring even remotely close. Note I expect this to change when we get Statehelm.


I have no comments on raks as I know they just got changed with their potions.

[alleryn]

I'd agree that humans are overpowered compared to elves, but for a completely different reason: the superior racial jewelry. Humans get both Ursula's Earrings and Bonnie's Earrings, while elves get really nothing comparably useful. Admittedly this is a rather small boost.

The difference in combat xp, i think, really depends on your playstyle. If you are constantly grouped up in dungeons, the human comes out ahead.

If you are constantly soloing, and are doing so outside or in other areas where it's easy to stay clean and are making use of cleanliness arrangements, the elf is going to come out ahead.

Maybe the elf takes a little more effort for a typical player in order to keep cleanliness high, but the large boosts from cleanliness arrangements (used when planning to stay clean) coupled with judicious use of dirt shield potions gives an effective way to catch up and even surpass human leveling rate. Disclaimer: I haven't actually played an elf, maybe it's harder than i think.

[Glythe]

Disclaimer: I haven't actually played an elf, maybe it's harder than i think.

The only time I would ever consider using a cleanliness arrangement is if I am going to fight next to a river. Again the issue is that I can get dirty in 15 minutes as a level 80 character. I wonder if this has some base in how much total xp you get rather than time fighting. Dirt shield potions are kind of a joke also. So if you put on that display you have a very good chance of giving yourself negative xp for 4 hours for most of the duration. Cool right?

Let me put it to you this way.... This difference in exp grinding was in Everquest. Humans were the base xp and had 'ok' stats. The northern giant people had better stats and took more xp to level. Trolls had natural regeneration and took more xp to level still. The regen was very significant though often underplayed. I had a troll alt that I solo leveled up with some twink gear due to regeneration. Regen allowed me to fight things and kill them while a human would have died. You also had more strength/vitality so you hit harder/lived longer. If you played a warrior the best option was the Ogre as it allowed you to be immune to stuns from the front.

By comparison a human warrior was gimped compared to an Ogre or troll. The most gimped race was the halfling that basically had even worse stats than a human in exchange for faster leveling. If you tried to make a halfling tank for your guild you would be worse in tier 4 armor than a troll/orgre in tier 3 armor.


Anyway.... for that level of difference I expect "something". How about elves get +2 power regen in combat? Better still would be to fix the xp problem.

While you are correct in theory that an elf levels better solo it doesn't work that way. The human is better due to how community works.

[alleryn]

I just don't find myself getting dirty very often. Not sure what i'm doing, but i often fight for hours at a time outdoors, and my cleanliness doesn't seem to go down. I only notice myself getting dirty inside of dungeons.

And as far as cleanliness arrangements/displays work, you should never be getting negative xp from them. Just take any other bouquet with you and use that when you get dirty. The cleanliness arrangement effect will then disappear.

[Glythe]

Serbule/Sun Vale Storage.

I played around with an animal for a time and unlocked some sunvale storage. As an animal you can go over to Silvia and access the animal town storage. As soon as you become mortal you can no longer access that storage.

If you max out the storage for Joeh, Marna, Ivyn and charles thompson you can use the bookcase to access their storage. Those npcs however will not talk to you.

This is the very definition of unfair treatment. I would like to see : animals lose access to serb stash while in animal form or humans able to use sunvale storage they have rightfully unlocked while playing as an animal. Please note I would rather everyone keep the storage if you go to the effort of unlocking it.




I just don't find myself getting dirty very often. Not sure what i'm doing, but i often fight for hours at a time outdoors, and my cleanliness doesn't seem to go down. I only notice myself getting dirty inside of dungeons.

And as far as cleanliness arrangements/displays work, you should never be getting negative xp from them. Just take any other bouquet with you and use that when you get dirty. The cleanliness arrangement effect will then disappear.

As you pointed out previously - you are not an elf. As an elf you get a * shaped icon on your buff area that shows when you are dirty and a water droplet when you are clean (inbetween there is nothing).

Displays are not cheap and your proposal is on the side of being silly. It would be like using a memory enhancer for 15 minutes of combat and then deciding to go have lunch while afk (instead of logging out). It would be an incredible waste.

[alleryn]

Displays are not cheap and your proposal is on the side of being silly. It would be like using a memory enhancer for 15 minutes of combat and then deciding to go have lunch while afk (instead of logging out). It would be an incredible waste.
Cleanliness Arrangement #4 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=4) can be produced with only "garbage" flowers that you never really run out of (2 Daisy, 1 Pansy, 2 Marigold) because seeds are easily foraged in Sun Vale (may be less true in Sun Vale 2.0, haven't explored it much).

These kind of arrangements are basically throwaway. There's no need to get 4 hours of use out of it to make it a reasonable expenditure. I admit i still don't understand how getting dirty works, but i feel like you are exaggerating when you say you can only get 15 minutes of use out of the thing. I'm quite certain i've fought for hours on end and then talked to Yetta without washing off.

[Vish]

change elf racial buff/debuff from 'dirty' to no 'sex from yesterday' :P

[Glythe]

I admit i still don't understand how getting dirty works, but i feel like you are exaggerating when you say you can only get 15 minutes of use out of the thing.

I solo in WN while leveling up ice magic. Within 15 minutes I can get dirty. There is no exaggeration here. There is also nowhere I can wash off in the zone either.

I have an elf with multiple 80 classes.

I have a human with 2 classes at 70 (that I am about to unlock for 80).

I have a second human who is ~55 in two classes.

I have 2 human alts instead of something else because human levels up way faster.

I have a Rak that I am deleting to make a fairy (soon ™). I have not played with their revised mechanic but it was bad before it got changed - even worse than elf.


As for the bit about using flowers.... I will remind you that humans keep their bonus for free indefinitely with another person in the party. Mechanically speaking elves are just inferior. Flowers cost dirt (not to mention the time to grow them) and arrangements have some annoying parts to craft (cotton/wool/bars). Using an arrangement to turn them on and off every 15 minutes is completely silly.

[alleryn]

I solo in WN while leveling up ice magic. Within 15 minutes I can get dirty. There is no exaggeration here. There is also nowhere I can wash off in the zone either.

I have an elf with multiple 80 classes.

I have a human with 2 classes at 70 (that I am about to unlock for 80).

I have a second human who is ~55 in two classes.

I have 2 human alts instead of something else because human levels up way faster.

I have a Rak that I am deleting to make a fairy (soon ™). I have not played with their revised mechanic but it was bad before it got changed - even worse than elf.


As for the bit about using flowers.... I will remind you that humans keep their bonus for free indefinitely with another person in the party. Mechanically speaking elves are just inferior. Flowers cost dirt (not to mention the time to grow them) and arrangements have some annoying parts to craft (cotton/wool/bars). Using an arrangement to turn them on and off every 15 minutes is completely silly.

Well WN is a dungeon. (Edit: When i said it sounds like an exaggeration it's because it sounded like you were saying that a Cleanliness Arrangement would NEVER last more that 15 minutes. I admit there may be some cases where it only lasts 15 minutes). The point i was trying to make is that elves are good if you are soloing outdoors while you level. As a solo human i am in penalty 99% of the time.

Humans have no way to earn bonus xp like elves do. The humans "free bonus" (which only applies to people who group) of 1% is nothing compared to the elven cleanliness bonus under arrangment which can get up to 10% or something.

Plus elves have mutliple pieces of gear to boost max cleanliness (Elven Officer's Helm, Suave Mage Shirt, etc). Humans have nothing to boost max community apart from their racial earrings.

[Glythe]

Apparently the forum ate the reply I posted yesterday.


As a solo human i am in penalty 99% of the time. My humans are in community 99% of the time.

Humans do not display when they get dirty but elves do immediately. I will remind you that you pointed out you have no experience playing an elf. I two human characters because they level so much faster.

It is incredibly easy to go out for 60-90 minutes as a human and then take a sell break and still be in community.




Humans have no way to earn bonus xp like elves do. The humans "free bonus" (which only applies to people who group) of 1% is nothing compared to the elven cleanliness bonus under arrangment which can get up to 10% or something.

Plus elves have mutliple pieces of gear to boost max cleanliness (Elven Officer's Helm, Suave Mage Shirt, etc). Humans have nothing to boost max community apart from their racial earrings.

Are you advocating the use of level 50 gear? can I do the same and say make sure to use your community earrings? Cleanliness items do not significantly adjust the rate at which you get dirty - in my experience.

Having 15 minutes of +10% xp and then the remaining 3 hours plus at -10% xp is a really bad trade. I would love to see the display keep you clean longer and have a more balanced xp % increase.


"actual objective fact"

Fact:

Elves have inferior jewelry to humans
Elves lose their xp bonus much faster than humans (without taking any action as the player for either)


Observation:

I can take my humans out for 60-90 minutes and stay in community.
I can lose my cleanliness bonus in 15 minutes as an elf.

There seems to be a big disconnect here in terms of equality

*Edit Update: With 13% xp buffs i lost my clean bonus in under 6 minutes in kur tower. So then I went and washed off and watched the timer (thank you skin buffs). I was dirty before 2 minutes passed - this includes travel time to mobs. I washed off again and noted the time. I was able to get dirty again in under 2 minutes (with even fewer mobs closer to the water wash off point).

Conclusion:

Elves are mechanically inferior to humans and the mechanism could be adjusted slightly.


Why you feel the need to personally attack those who play differently than you with insults though, is somewhat baffling.

Who am I attacking? Are you trolling again?

[Glythe]

Serbule/Sun Vale Storage.

I played around with an animal for a time and unlocked some sunvale storage. As an animal you can go over to Silvia and access the animal town storage. As soon as you become mortal you can no longer access that storage.

If you max out the storage for Joeh, Marna, Ivyn and charles thompson you can use the bookcase to access their storage. Those npcs however will not talk to you.

This is the very definition of unfair treatment. I would like to see : animals lose access to serb stash while in animal form or humans able to use sunvale storage they have rightfully unlocked while playing as an animal. Please note I would rather everyone keep the storage if you go to the effort of unlocking it.


I really want to move on to this issue.

[srand]

Thank you for your feedback on these topics, everyone! I know the thread is for anything, not just the couple of things that have been mentioned in it, but that's not actually a helpful format for us. Neither is the sniping.

Glythe, Coglin: I'd appreciate it if you gave each other a break for a little while, eh? Your arguments and personal attacks are really derailing these threads and making the forum less useful for everyone. I don't want to keep closing all the threads, and I don't want to have to ask you both to take a short vacation to calm down, so perhaps you could just resist engaging with each other.