Update Discussion: November 22, 2019

[Sims]

The update notes are here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?2321-Update-Notes-November-22-2019

Discussion is in this thread! But please remember to report any bugs through the in-game reporting system so we can track them.

[Oxlazr]

Curious as to why the no-flight rule was implemented now, mostly; being able to fly indoors as a giant bat was one of its most compelling features - I'm not likely to play one for awhile at least, but I wonder if people who regularly use that form will ultimately feel slighted as it seems to be a pretty significant change.

At any-rate, if they're no longer able to fly indoors, is there any harm in increasing their base flight movement speed now? It's fairly slow compared to the raven, as I recall.

[Deldaron]

Curious as to why the no-flight rule was implemented now, mostly; being able to fly indoors as a giant bat was one of its most compelling features - I'm not likely to play one for awhile at least, but I wonder if people who regularly use that form will ultimately feel slighted as it seems to be a pretty significant change.

At any-rate, if they're no longer able to fly indoors, is there any harm in increasing their base flight movement speed now? It's fairly slow compared to the raven, as I recall.

My guess (purely speculative) is that this is coming ahead of Fae release. Fae will have flying in some form and as flying in dungeons can be abused they probably won't be able to use it indoors so it made sense to not give that ability only to bat. There's also a chance they will share a flying mechanic. Just a guess, but I don't think we were really ever intended to count on that.

[Citan]

About flying indoors: in some dungeons it's possible to use flight to perch monsters without any danger. We've generally just brushed those issues aside because we have bigger issues to deal with, but as I prototype the upcoming playable fairy race, it becomes more pressing. Fairies, who have access to all combat skills, make it really obvious how broken indoor flight can be. I think the sanest solution is to just turn off flight in dungeons, so that's what we did.

As for why we didn't ground bats indoors in the first place, it was due to a technical limitation of how the giant bat flight was implemented. We couldn't disable giant bat flight indoors without stripping it off of them permanently (until they stopped being a bat and became a bat again). So we just left things kinda-exploitable until we had a better solution.

RE: giant bat flight speed, isn't there a flight-speed boost jewelry just for them already? If not they're probably due for one. We may also end up giving giant bats an improved innate indoor floaty-jump bonus, to allow for a bit of acrobatics in-dungeons. (Stuff we're experimenting with for fairies... if any of it makes the cut, we'll backport it to bats.) I also have some fun ideas of how Giant Bat will tie into Vampire synergy... though that's farther off.

[Ranperre]

RE: giant bat flight speed, isn't there a flight-speed boost jewelry just for them already? If not they're probably due for one.

I know of no jewelry.

Afaik bats get a main and offhand mod to increase flight speed. At 70 and 80, each mod gives 1.5 fast flying speed. Currently, a bat needs both of these mods in order to fly at the same speed as druids (pretty sure it's the exact same speed, so druids come with +3 fast flying speed). However, I believe druids can just equip giant bat, while not actually being a giant bat, in order to get the bonus too. Just like how you can equip rabbit/deer as a human and take advantage of their passive movement speed mods.

[BetaNotus]

Seven existing items that require Giant Bat as a form are listed below. None impact movement at this time.
Belt of the Batty Battler, Decent Bat Witch Hat, Nice Bat Witch Hat, Quality Bat Witch Hat, Great Bat Witch Hat, Amazing Bat Witch Hat, Astounding Bat Witch Hat.

[Sheawanna]

None effect movement , I understand why it was done . ( wanted to mention I do have a Indefatgable running claw level 70 (only bat haha ) that has sprint speed on it { but its sprint speed is + 0 yep that is a big fat ZERO ] .
Seriously we need some speed even with flying in dungeons my group would still run faster ahead of me , now I would not bother to enter a dungeon and expect my entire group to wait on my slow arse to catch up !!! .

If we can't fly and so few of us actually exist playing a bat , perhaps allow the bat to have innate bonus run speed ?
Btw … Loving your thought on vampire/bat synergy (suggested it long ago but love it ..) I felt if it was night within game the vampire could allow bat to change to human (only if spell was casted ) otherwise one would look as one would be myself would look sexy as a bat :)
Also allowing for extra damage if night it should be . We already bite :P

[Deldaron]

re: mollusc update

I posted a lengthy post about mollusc slime recently and how I thought it needed to be altered (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?2312-More-ways-to-obtain-Fae-Silk) and for the most part I think this does a great job. My biggest complaint was that with the hourly rate I felt like I was stuck in fae realm because leaving meant missing a chance to get more mollusc milk and this is a wonderful solution to that. The only piece that I find strange is that cloth armor is still one of the most cumbersome items to craft at the moment. For Spring Fairy gear I totally get it as that is a pretty powerful set, but I think cloth is at an interesting place at the moment. It is one of the least useful sets (if going cloth nimble gear is now an easier and better option, though you have to farm the recipe drops). I would love to see a boost to the standard cloth set (maybe a natural boost to direct/indirect non-physical dmg or something to make it worth crafting over leather/nimble). I say this, however, having zero of the nimble recipes so the drop rate might make cloth the only power centric option for a power hungry build, but I can't think of a build where it feels compelling.

All in all a great solution to the mollusc issue and as Daguin noted we still have the dungeon to look forward to (as well as plenty of other updates) which might make fae silk feel less rare which would make this last point moot, but from the vantage of this moment cloth is in a strange place imo.

-

re: bat flying

I kind of saw this one coming and I totally support it. Flying in dungeons was so easily abused. In WN and IC there were places where you could fly out of the dungeon. Bugs in their own right to be sure, but still abuse friendly. Certain bosses in caves could easily be attacked from a nearby ledge (loading golem + timothy) which was also ripe for abuse. I think it's smart to nerf flying indoors and per Citan's comment it doesn't seem it was really intended to be the standard for bat (see druid).

The only suggestion I would make/request I have is that the Casino be somehow flagged as outdoors if possible. On my bat char flying is just the way I get around and most of my movement speeds I use are specific to flight (alcohol, giant bat, priest mods). Because of this I feel incredibly slow walking around in the casino and giant bat doesn't come with the out of the box speed mods that the other non-spider animals have. Not the end of the world, but it's really the only place that I feel a kind of "aw man" feeling with the flight change.

Glad to see the other bugs fixed, though my character was certainly okay with the blessings from Enoyos encroaching on the druid territory of Sun Vale ;) - always appreciative of the work and love that goes into this game :)

[Tielan_Maudwyn]

A big thanks for the astounding winter leather recipes !!! :)

[Tamiq]

A big thanks for the astounding winter leather recipes !!! :)

Very much seconded!

[Citan]

Two random things:

- I agree bats should be able to fly in the casino and will make that happen

- I fixed a scripting bug with Sugar the deer, who now has the usual talk/gifting options (but no Favors just yet). It didn't make any patch notes because I edited her script live, so I wanted to document it somewhere.

[Sheawanna]

Thanks Citan on both responses and 100 % support both :)

[Sasho]

About flying indoors: in some dungeons it's possible to use flight to perch monsters without any danger. We've generally just brushed those issues aside because we have bigger issues to deal with, but as I prototype the upcoming playable fairy race, it becomes more pressing. Fairies, who have access to all combat skills, make it really obvious how broken indoor flight can be. I think the sanest solution is to just turn off flight in dungeons, so that's what we did.

Not to be a party pooper, but what makes you think we can't still do this with a super jump word of power? If you disabled flying WoPs then you should also disable super jump wops. However, that will really take away my fun when I want to skip navigating certain dungeons like the Rahu Sewers, or if I just wanna jump to the top of Kur Tower to kill Lomas :)

[Sheawanna]

Not to be a party pooper, but what makes you think we can't still do this with a super jump word of power? If you disabled flying WoPs then you should also disable super jump wops. However, that will really take away my fun when I want to skip navigating certain dungeons like the Rahu Sewers, or if I just wanna jump to the top of Kur Tower to kill Lomas :)

in this I simply agree

[ProfessorCat]

About flying indoors: in some dungeons it's possible to use flight to perch monsters without any danger. We've generally just brushed those issues aside because we have bigger issues to deal with, but as I prototype the upcoming playable fairy race, it becomes more pressing. Fairies, who have access to all combat skills, make it really obvious how broken indoor flight can be. I think the sanest solution is to just turn off flight in dungeons, so that's what we did.

As for why we didn't ground bats indoors in the first place, it was due to a technical limitation of how the giant bat flight was implemented. We couldn't disable giant bat flight indoors without stripping it off of them permanently (until they stopped being a bat and became a bat again). So we just left things kinda-exploitable until we had a better solution.

With the new patch that disables the line of sight exploit, is it possible to come back to this thought? As said previously in this thread, one of the biggest appeals of being a flying race is being able to fly in a dungeon. Some dungeons like the Rahu Sewers or Serb Crypt wont have much to do with flying, however the Yeti cave was a delight to explore when flight was allowed. There's an entire rafters system that I'm sure wasn't meant to go un-witnessed! Flying up and out after killing Maligno was a victory lap compared to getting lost on the 'simple' switchback to get out.

If there is some aspect of indoor flight that goes beyond perching monsters, it wasn't quite addressed! I understand that development both limits and dictates what can happen in game. Removing flight indoors for bats (with the anticipation of Fae) felt like a step backwards from one of those "THAT'S SO COOL" moments that players were able to have. It felt like a justified removal, but if that issue is fixed, it just feels like toys are being taken away!

[Citan]

Some dungeons also need their ceiling collision geometry improved. But yes, once I'm confident that the perching code is robust (which will take a while), I plan to open up dungeons to flight on a case-by-case basis as it becomes possible.

[INXS]

Hopefully the new perched mechanism works out, flying in dungeons I always find it to be so easy to exploit perches, to skip mobs you don't want to fight and move to " the farming spot". I just feel in dungeons where it involves fighting and making XP/loot all characters should have an equal footing. Outside the dungeons fly as far and high as you want.