Discuss Dev Blog: April 2, 2019

[Citan]

The newest developer blog is here:

https://forum.projectgorgon.com/entry.php?35-Dev-Blog-April-2-2019

And this is the thread for discussion! Thanks!

[poulter]

War cache sounds very interesting and I am looking forward to trying them out.

Suspect that they will be a 'wanted feature' for all levels.

Kudos for coming up with the concept and developing it.

Many thanks to all for your commitment and hard work. These experiments really differentiates PG from all the other games.

[Golliathe]

In the future could you make it possible for us to know which treasure effect has been added by an augment?

Currently you need to keep a list.

It would be super awesome to put say an asterisk or maybe a purple one next to the text on the power in question.

[FURY]

Happy to see more content!

The Lycan changes have been a long time coming.

It will be intresting to see how the players/skill usage landscape changes with these changes.

[ShieldBreaker]

Most looking forward for the % chance for a given mod being rolled, it will make things way easier.

[Deldaron]

Very excited about the new transmutation aspects - I like that less rare items are more easily boosted - this helps a lot with spending a long time getting a set how you want it just to out level it. Interested to see how percent rarity will change the add useless augment game for increasing favorable re-roll odds.

Incredibly excited about these new 'war caches' - cannot wait to try them out. I'm very curious what it will be like when you randomly end up with another player. People on the whole tend to be very helpful - i.e. waiting and guiding to loot pigs - and I think it could be a great social moment when you randomly end up with just one other player in a mini puzzle dungeon.

On twitter there was mention of new skills as well as new mechanics for the next update, but nothing mentioned about new skills - curious if we'll see any net new skills coming soon though I'm sure I'll be sated with just what was listed.

Lastly, thanks for the hammer boost :3 I've already enjoyed hammer as is so looking forward to seeing what it turns into ^_^

[INXS]

So it's going to show the percentage, great! But has the mechanics in which you roll treasure been updated or am I going to see 12.5 % but have the same 2 treasure recycle themselves? Citan

[SassySusie]

Well I was waiting patiently to see what was going to change with Lycan because after the last nerf I can not even run in Gazluk nor Gazluk dungeons without dying over and over again. So my days are done with Lycan. I made a whole new character after the last nerfs because well Lycan was not playable for me anymore, and very frustrating, instead of a wolf you made a baby puppy. I did not complain about the last nerfs well because yes it needed to be done, I will be the first to admit Lycan was too strong. But now another nerf? If you keep nerfing and making it useless you mine as well take it out of the game. Go ahead haters... hate I don't give a crap. I guess my lycan-puppy can become my mule now and just hold items. Hell I may not even log back into the game after this. It was fun while it lasted.

[Ranperre]

I hope you look into lowering the cost of crude and decent phlog per reroll. Consider the opportunity cost for someone in the mid 50s his first time through with 210 decent phlog. With this 210 decent phlog, you can go sell it for 10k and buy a couple of abilities, or reroll six times. I don't remember how much money these people make, but 10-15k/hr isn't out of the question, is it? It wasn't until 60+ that I could make 15-25k/hr, but maybe I was just slow at making money. So you're asking for someone to spend an hour of their time's worth of money to MAYBE get one or two better mods on non-permanent gear. I really don't think that works in favor of transmutation/modding, which basically becomes necessary 50+ (where you have that steep difficulty increase). The tools to scale to the current content are there, they're just too expensive.



In the future could you make it possible for us to know which treasure effect has been added by an augment?

Currently you need to keep a list.

It would be super awesome to put say an asterisk or maybe a purple one next to the text on the power in question.

You can go to a transmutation table and find the mod that you aren't allowed to reroll. As in, item shows six mods, but the transmutation table will only allow you to reroll 5. The augmented mod is the 6th... if I'm understanding you correctly.

[Yaffy]

The new dungeon stuff sounds interesting. From what I take it sounds like it'll be kind of puzzle orientated which could be fun. Opportunities to gear around level 50 were pretty difficult too so I look forward to the addition.

The transmutation changes are very welcome too. Giving the player more information about these sorts of things is always excellent. It lets us plan ahead better and reduces a lot of the frustration involved, ESPECIALLY when dealing with randomness.

As for the Hammer and Lycan changes, they sound pretty good for now, but I'll have to see what the changes end up like.
Pound to slag is ok, although a little lackluster compared to other epic attack nukes so a bit of a buff wouldn't be bad on it. Latent charge getting a buff is definitely good though, it's probably always been Hammer's worst attack overall. I'm still wondering if Way of the Hammer is going to get any changes since the last patch's changes to the damage formula hurt it really badly.

I'm glad you're looking at Lycan from a fair point of view. There have been a lot of people claiming that Lycan is the strongest damage dealer in the game and super OP, so I was expecting Lycan to just get decimated by the nerf bat. In reality, Lycan isn't very strong, it's just that Skulk was way too good and outside of the huge damage Skulk combos, Lycan's damage is kinda lacking. The damage formula changes have evened it out a bit, but I would still like to see Skulk weakened a bit more while improving the rest of Lycan's damage a bit.

[Kuraku]

Oh wow, the mini dungeons sound very cool! I would love to see things like that in higher levels too in the endgame - it reminds me of maps from Path of Exile (Or Rifts from Diablo 3) and I'm extremely into that kind of gameplay loop. Can't wait to try them out!

[Lyramis]

Oooh, War Cache! Just the idea of it makes me want it for higher levels as well, but level 50 is a perfect place to start. While I do enjoy grouping much more than soloing there are times when a solo challenge is very appealing. The tickets to trade in should be very helpful at level 50. Not sure if those would continue to be at higher levels though. I have a feeling that even when all levels are in game, level 70 will be the base crafted set of gear for leveling up to 90 or 100. So getting a few pieces in a mini dg probably wouldn't be a thing, but I could be wrong. I guess higher level mini dgs would need something like specific drops from difficult bosses in them for replay value. I would love to see them drop very specific gear, with a rather low drop chance, that levels as you level, especially weapons. Although, we do get people wanting to join GK runs that are completely unprepared for them as far as gear goes, especially if they haven't run Lab. As I think more about this stuff, I realize that I would have loved mini dgs as newbie! They would help get you ready for the lower level group dungeons.

I can't wait for the Lycan changes (heavily-revised abilities and treasure). I have not enjoyed Lycan for a couple years now and am so excited to make a new build that isn't ruined because I didn't finish a rotation. Skulk and other bite modifiers + bite was indeed op but I didn't enjoy it at all. I hope SassySusie, a true lycan at heart, will be happily surprised by the changes. I also hope it will remain a very strong class.

Citan I see that you are working on more outdoor areas which leads me to a question. Should we expect level 80+ unlocks before or after release? I find it fun to prepare for unlocks but not if all the prep (mostly council) is just going to be wiped :P

[DamageIncorp]

New outdoor areas sound amazing.
For those of you who played Asherons Call...would be sweet to have an outdoor area like Viridian Rise.

[Loggy]

I think this is an awesome step to freshen it up, The transmutation changes I welcome and I am super excited for the hammer change as I love the hammer skill. reat work guys and I look forard to my special title. Thank you for the excellent hard work

[Loggy]

When you buy one of these packages, you receive a code via email. Then you log in to the game and visit a golem in Serbule, the "Account Package Manager". He's in the empty house next to Joe's shop.


I only received an email saying my PayPal was confirmed, never got an email with a code

[mrwarp]

When you buy one of these packages, you receive a code via email. Then you log in to the game and visit a golem in Serbule, the "Account Package Manager". He's in the empty house next to Joe's shop.


I only received an email saying my PayPal was confirmed, never got an email with a code

Log into your store account and check under 'downloads'. Your code should be available from there, or is one of those sections.

[Loggy]

Yeah , i see that is opens notepad with the code, Thanks :)

[Scraps]

Lycan is OP on damage? That's news to me. Maybe I'm playing it wrong. I really loved the idea of playing a werewolf in this game but it has been rather underwhelming to me, at least pre-50. It takes me longer to kill stuff compared to my other pre-50 characters and I seem to be fairly squishy as well. It actually makes me dread leveling up my werewolf lately, which makes me very sad. I wish I felt OP!

[Loggy]

Scraps,

It might be your build, mods and such. Check with other ycan and what build they use :)

[SassySusie]

okay Citan I know you like numbers and want to know certain situations etc.... so here goes

I run an archer/BC as my alt I can go to kur and round up more than 8 wolves freeze them do heavy multi shot and one battle chem hit and they are all dead. On my lycan if I round up more than 3 then I am dead now take note please.. my lycan has had max enchanted fully modded gear for years now, my archer she is NOT in max enchanted (some of her gear is not even yellow gear) nor fully modded gear and can kill better than the lycan can.

So now here is some numbers for you:

Lycan: Sang Fangs 893, pack attack 930, Pouncing rend 868, Smell Fear 985, and Bite 988 now you think that is strong for a level 70 max enchanted fully modded character? Oh wait here is my archer numbers Now remember she is not fully modded not even fully geared!

Archer: Mangling Shot 1522, Heavy Shot, 2002, Aimed shot 1054, Heavy Multishot 1306, and I change on the other arrow that I use depending on the situation...

But anyhow please take a good look at those numbers and tell me Lycan is still too OP.

[Loggy]

SassySusie, Relax these small changes are why were are testing the game. Lycan to the devs is OP they are fixing it. It is gets nerfed too much they fix it again. Its why we paid to test the game and play in alpha and beta...Have you looked at damage types and mitigations of the wolves. I have seen a lycan tank a GK boss with no issues and he had lower health and armor than me, we had a dedicated healer but he did damn good job. Changes suck at times and try not to take it to heart changes will be made and often upset a few players. Try to stay positive

[Yaffy]

I stand by the idea that Lycan isn't OP, it's Skulk (One of their abilities) that is OP. It did get heavily nerfed in the last patch along with a bunch of other stuff due to the damage formula changes, but it's still quite strong.

Just to give a rough idea, a modded Skulk before the last patch could add 359 to 445 damage to an attack, which can double to triple the damage of most attacks (Bite for example, does 280). Then another Skulk mod multiplied crushing damage by over 200% which multiplied the original bonus as well as any other bonuses you had. Skulk was essentially a button that could multiply the damage of your next attack by 3 to 6 times depending on what it was and your set up into it.

The easiest combo is Skulk into Bite since Bite is a Lycan attack, but essentially any crushing attack can work. Bite can be an AoE and is available to all Lycan builds, so most Lycan players typically use Bite as their follow up. Previously, combos with Lycan/Unarmed could potentially hit for over 25k to a single target. The last patch heavily weakened the crushing damage multiplier so it's more like 2-3x damage depending on the move now, but it's still quite clearly the most dominant aspect of Lycan.

Skulk's existence over the years has always baffled me. Things like the lack of a cast time even when Spider's weaker equivalent had a 5 second cast time (now 3 or 1) and the 120%+ bonus to crushing when most damage type buffs are around 10%-30% has always greatly confused me. It's always stuck out like a sore thumb to me for years, and it has gone through many "Nerf waves" unscathed until recently. I assume that the original idea of the ability might have been to use it outside of combat and sneak up on enemies as a sort of "Stealth kill", but the lack of a cast time means it can just be used mid-combat as part of a combo.

I would like to state once again though that I believe Lycan is actually on the weaker side without Skulk, so I believe the "Removal" of it would be too large of a nerf. Currently however I think Skulk is too domineering in that every Lycan build should have it not just because of it's strength but also since the other parts of Lycan are a bit lackluster overall. Although Citan is clearly implying Lycan players should expect some pain from nerfs, I think he's also saying he's improving other aspects of Lycan so they can be useful without the ridiculous "Multiply your damage by 300-600%" button. It might not be as fun as decimating enemies with a 9k damage AoE nuke, but hopefully it gives Lycans more flexibility on how to build and improves the skillset overall.

[Golliathe]

You can go to a transmutation table and find the mod that you aren't allowed to reroll. As in, item shows six mods, but the transmutation table will only allow you to reroll 5. The augmented mod is the 6th... if I'm understanding you correctly.
That's a nice work around... thank you! But I would still like to have a notation system on the item with a simple mark to note which power has been added.



Well I was waiting patiently to see what was going to change with Lycan because after the last nerf I can not even run in Gazluk nor Gazluk dungeons without dying over and over again. So my days are done with Lycan.

Are you saying you can't solo in Gazluk Keep anymore? If that is the case then I think that is a good change for the game. I honestly dont want to see anyone in GK soloing mobs intended to be killed by a group of 6 people. And yes that means that I would like to see unarmed and psychology leveled off with a bunch of other skills in terms of survivability. That's in part why I made the GK thread exposing a lot of the cheese you see in the zone that maybe should be changed to make combat more challenging/interesting.

As an outsider looking in to the werewolf window I can say that lycan was pretty OP for a long time. I have hopes that the skill will be re-tuned to make it a much more enjoyable experience overall. At the same time I think the writing was on the wall with this one as wolves got to enjoy a great deal of power for a very long time.

I have a feeling that it might get changed for the worse but in time will eventually feel whole again (so in essence lycan will be the brother of necromancy). Unfortunately that is the nature of a game in development that things can go from a very high point to a crashing low. I can somewhat relate as I quit battlechemistry when the aoe nerf hit last year and I think a lot of people did the same. A number of people moved to wolf to use that aoe combo which somehow survived the other nerf.


Nobody wants their build to get ruined but I eventually came to realize that the aoe nerf was good for the game. The new teleport ability sounds really cool so maybe don't knock the changes until you try them? There may be some buffs to healing/defense that counterbalance the loss of spike damage. It's also quite possible wolf might be completely fine if you shuffle your mods/powerset a bit.

Looking at wolf and hammer you can see they both lost the ability to end a fight at a moment's notice. That's a balance issue when you compare them to all the other skills in the game. It's not a good idea to have some setups end a fight in 4-5 attacks when an equal quality gear/damge setup need 8-10 attacks using different professions.

Archery should be the highest dps skill in the game. It costs you quite a bit to keep churning out arrows made with spruce. This skill also costs you inventory slots and that means loss of money because you can't carry as much as the next guy. If nothing else it means you probably cant do the work orders for spruce over 4x characters every month. That is a lot of money down the drain!


Just to give a rough idea, a modded Skulk before the last patch could add 359 to 445 damage to an attack, which can double to triple the damage of most attacks (Bite for example, does 280). Then another Skulk mod multiplied crushing damage by over 200% which multiplied the original bonus as well as any other bonuses you had. Skulk was essentially a button that could multiply the damage of your next attack by 3 to 6 times.

The easiest combo is Skulk into Bite since Bite is a Lycan attack, but essentially any crushing attack can work. Bite can be an AoE and is available to all Lycan builds, so most Lycan players typically use Bite as their follow up. Previously, combos with Lycan/Unarmed could potentially hit for over 25k to a single target.

Skulk's existence over the years has always baffled me. I assume that the original idea of the ability might have been to use it outside of combat and sneak up on enemies as a sort of "Stealth kill", but the lack of a cast time means it can just be used mid-combat as part of a combo.

Looking at those numbers it really shouldn't shock anyone that wolf got nerfed. I feel bad for anyone using an 'honest' wolf build but it was pretty clear something was wrong with lycan overall.

Most level 70 characters in max enchanted gear would have difficulty doing as much damage as the pre-nerf lycan with their entire bar of moves going off at once! That's a pretty good indication that wolf might have just been a wee bit strong.

[poulter]

My experience is that almost every time there has been a 'nerf', the game play has benefitted in the medium term (excluding Animal Handling e.g. no more tanking manticores with pets).

Personally, i have felt the same as Sassie does at this time, but have to say, it passes once you adapt to it.
e.g.
'Compulsory' use of food and snacks. Every build unusable due to running out of power. Learnt cooking, cheese making and flower appreciation

Hammer /Mentalism Electricity build. Damage types reclassified. Damage output very low. Went to Archery

Archery critical damage reduction. Went from 13k+ crits to <4k. (2 big nerfs). Went Fire /BC

Fire /BC AOE nerfs. Went from AOE on c. 18 panthers at once to 4. Went Spider /Druid Poison build


Waiting for Poison nerf? Watch this space

All the above 'hurt' at the time, but they have improved the game.

Werewolf damage:
Whilst not contradicting Yaffy's points, I am one of those people saying Werewolf damage is OP as per current builds.

When Rum first started the random mob events, we conducted some informal testing on > 1 million+ health mobs.
I was in max crafted with augmented gold gear (58+ mods) using archery /druid or fire /BC.
The werewolves were in lesser gear (mainly GK dropped gear which had been modded & auged) c. 50 to 54 mods(?)

The werewolves regularly did twice my total damage each whether I used archery or fire.

So yes, werewolves do need a review, but hopefully it won't destroy them as a play style (as werewolf is a 'life-style' choice and not just a skill-combo).

[INXS]

SassySusie wow your Lucan numbers are pretty much on par with hammer abilities now! Same thing too can't kill things as easily as all my other builds.

[Lyramis]

What I would really like to see for Lycan is a second aoe. Please! Single target builds are really only good for one thing, and that is group dgs. Single target builds can pick off a mob very quickly, making the rest of the fight easier with fewer mobs, and are great for bosses. Lycan however has to be very effective in solo play as well since it is a life choice and you are stuck as Lycan 3 days each month, which means always dealing with 3 (and often more) mobs. That is the reason why everyone built up bite to crazy levels of damage.

[katoosh]

If you're going to nerf a skill line please allow us to drop it should we wish to. I probably won't even play at all for the duration of the full moon.

[INXS]

katoosh I think it's fair to be given choice to drop one of these "curses". Dangerous weapons were removed because devs screwed up apparently, so we made some choices and only right to be given opportunity to get rid of something. You picked a skill and it was great now it's nerfed to shit and you're supposed to keep it? It's only beta stage and the game is trial and error on both sides.

[Ranperre]

If you're hitting for five digits, you will eventually get nerfed in at least two consecutive patches. That's basically become a law around here.

[ErDrick]

War caches seem like a cool idea, you might want to make them level 55/60 though instead of 50.

Dailies kind of take care of 45-50 gearing, there is no labs daily however, thus a gap at 51-69.

Can't comment on Lycan stuff as I am not a Lycan, except to say that a nerf isn't always a nerf if it makes the playstyle more fun and varied, I'd wait and see before going nuts over it. That being said, still nothing wrong with voicing concerns.

[Niph]

Dailies kind of take care of 45-50 gearing

Dailies don't give level 50 gear solo, they are more group oriented, and give money/tokens.

[Celler]

This part time puppy don't care too much.

An option to remove that awful black fog or for that matter any other players AOE effects etc would be grand especially at serb parties.

New Dungeons sound great, Can't wait.

Trans and Aug changes for the little folk can only help. they fly up the lvls barely geared so encouragement for them to mess around may well help with the trans/aug wall later.


With regard to what Lyra mentioned, A little info would be helpful,

I have always assumed that any wipe would happen pretty much at end game when everything has pretty much been settled, I assumed that was the point.

It would be good to have more clarity. Hulons storage? Casino storage? Guild storage? Guild Points/Credits? Druid points, what's going?

Also the issue of if we have chosen a skill now say druid, priest or wolf will it stop us having access to other skills Vamp and weather witching etc?

[SassySusie]

Golliathe I did not say Gazluk Keep or GK I said Gazluk dungeons, you know there are quite a few of them around Gazluk. They are meant for level 70 SOLO runs NOT group runs. Those were the dungeons I was talking about.

[Jarlaxle]

Golliathe I did not say Gazluk Keep or GK I said Gazluk dungeons, you know there are quite a few of them around Gazluk. They are meant for level 70 SOLO runs NOT group runs. Those were the dungeons I was talking about.

That's impossible to not be able to solo the gazluk caves assuming you're a level 70. I was doing it at level 65 in 50s gear. Are you pulling like 10 at a time or something?

[cr00cy]

War catches sounds interesting, exactly the type of content I would like to see is Gorgon.

Amd I'm very excited about Lycan changes. Damge formula changes reduced effectivnes of Skulk for quite a bit, but I will not mind reducing burst damage even more, if it opens up other playstyles. I would love to see more ways to apply Dot's in Wolf kit, or more (read - 'any') tankiness. Because, to be honest, Wolf in rather lackluster. We don't get any nice level-up bonuses like other animals, our kit lack utility (beside maybe BotP damge buff, and SF slashing debuff, but latter was nerfed when dmg formula changed), and, outisde of Skulk burst, our dmage is not that great either. Not to mention, all of Wolf unique mechancs are... not that great, except maybe form change.

Eating corpses in combat is back? Well... to be honest, I don't think it will change much. There are 3 main problems with Beat metabolism regen right now:

1)BMR running out in the middle of fight. This one is most common, and while this change will help a bit, it will not fix it completely. If I fight only one or two mobs, and there is corpse nearby, sure, I might take this few seconds to eat it. But if I'm in really thick spot(so situation when I need that regen the most), I'll probably will not have time to try and eat corpse, with how clunky UI is. If we had button for it, it would help greatly.

I can think of only one situation where this change will make difference - being forced into prolonged combat by Dot's, or mobs joining fight in small groups.

2)BMR is hard to proc in harder content/boss fights. This is most prominent in Gazluk, where we have a lot of elite mobs that can't be eaten. But even eating normal mobs can screw party out, if they spawn when we fight something dangerous. 'But one normal mobs shouldn't be a problem!" you might say, and in most cases you will be right, but what if there are more wolves in party? 2, 3, or maybe its full-wolf group (not that I ever saw one, but hey, it might happen)? And when we talk about bosses - there is most often no way to refresh it. Of course, if you are in proper group, you will probably have someone to heal and restore power to you. And this leads to last problem.

3)BMR is not worth the trouble most of the time. I was trying to make it meaningful part of my kit for long time. I was buying upgrades for it at Wolf Altar, I hunted mods that boosted regen it gives on my gear. But recently I stopped, and to be honest - I didn't noticed any real change in my survivability. This is because BMR is just that - a regen. It restores small amount of health per tick. And, right now, most mobs dela crazy amount of burst damage. BMR simply cannot keep up. But to buff it to level where it would make difference - it might easily make it Op.

Instead, I think I should be changed. For example make it work on similar tech as Shadow Feint. Instead of applying regen, eating corpse would add a buff, that will restore set amount of Health, or Power, if they fall below, let's say 50%. Buff will disappear when certain amount if restored. For example:

Eating Desert Rhino, will give me 1000 restoration pool. Let's say I have 600 HP and 300 Power. When my Hp falls below 300 it will drain certain amount from this pool to restore my health - it can be flat amount depending on skill level. It would basically work as Auto-potion, until all 'energy' tired from mob will run off. To prevent it from becoming too Op, you could add cooldown between ticks, or make them drain metabolism too.

Or, you could add some Dmage reduction to Wolf. Or lower mobs damage.

#LowerMobsDamage (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=LowerMobsDamage)

[Vish]

Maybe its time to add some stuff to Guild shop?

And remember that only full-moon game update are successful (and bloody-pizza offering for Pagan Gods are more important here that developer coding skills)

[Golliathe]

Golliathe I did not say Gazluk Keep or GK I said Gazluk dungeons, you know there are quite a few of them around Gazluk. They are meant for level 70 SOLO runs NOT group runs. Those were the dungeons I was talking about.

I was asking for a clarification. It sounds like in the process of making sure wolf wasn't stupidly OP (as it has been for a very long time - or had the potential to be) wolf has been ruined for 'honest' builds.

I find that sad and I hope it gets fixed soon.


That's impossible to not be able to solo the gazluk caves assuming you're a level 70. I was doing it at level 65 in 50s gear. Are you pulling like 10 at a time or something?

A max enchanted lvl 70 character can pull 6-8 mobs of lvl 60+ and not flinch when you have your build just right. Sure you might need to use a potion, and all the tricks you have up your sleeve but the real danger is near zero - even if your health doesn't reflect that. In short things are gk difficulty or they are a small speedbump that will only be in my way for a moment.

Losing that status really hurts. I can 100% relate on a lower level scale as I quit the game with the AoE nerf. I was most definitely feeling a 'fuck this game' vibe at that point in time (also due to money issues).

Wolf had an 'amp damage' combo that kinda made it unique. When you build around that suddenly there is a hole in your powerset. In essence you built around using that amp with your moves and it worked out like one of the combos from meditation (thus heavily modifying the order you use your skills).

Ultimately the problem is that nothing else worked like this so there was nothing close to this in terms of damage potential other than hammer. Both powersets lost the 1-2-3 haha you died.

Again it comes down to the fact that player 1 could do a few moves and hit for 25k while player 2 was doing a few moves and hit for 10k. One of these things had to get buffed massively or the other had to be nerfed to oblivion.

I have some friends who are really upset about the changes. But on the other hand there are some people who were really upset to learn that wolves were doing in some cases more than 2.5x their damage in the same amount of time. I mentioned this before in the GK combat thread so I will briefly say it's not good design when you can choose two power sets and one is massively better than the other. You can't have a good game when power set A is a 4 while power set B is a 10 or else nobody will bother playing the second power set (who knows better).

Wolf had to be broken so it was not abusive to the rest of the game; I hope it gets fixed and becomes a fun/balanced power set. The teleport sounds neat and I hope it's not just a gimmick like great icing on an otherwise terrible cake.

[Tagamogi]

Question on the War Caches: What if we want to bring someone else along? Would a party member be able to enter the portal, or will it only be visible to the person with the treasure map? I definitely love soloing but I also like duoing with specific people at times and since it sounds like the War Caches will be the most fun thing to do at 50, it would be nice if it was shareable if we wanted to.

[Niph]

A possible answer, and related question, is whether the first map to find the bunker is a tradable item that can be easily identified. If so, you could hand them a copy.

[Dibbuk]

I agree with SassySusie, about Lycans getting a bum rap and being nerfed a second time. The last nerf absolutely killed my lycan alt as a playable build, and now it will be nerfed again? And the worst is that we are stuck with the nerfs, as you cannot undo selecting lycan. But I always hope lycan will be made playable again.

[Cirsee]

I think it would be great to have the option of duoing with the War Caches.. they sound like fun. My hubby and I like to duo and occasionally we trio with another friend. Small group stuff would be fun. But I like the solo things too for those time when I just want to kill stuff on my own.

As to the transmutation.. I haven't learned how to do all that stuff yet. Way too much to try and learn yet.

[Skrunky]

Please let us go into the same War Cache dungeons with our party mates, even if we need multiple maps. I didn't think this game was the type to have forced solo play. We all want to see the hard work that you put into making these mini dungeons, but if I can't do it with my leveling buddy then I probably never will. Doing separate dungeons is just not as fun.

[Swanzo]

Lycan was destroyed in the last patch not sure how anyone thinks another nerf is needed. I didn't say anything about the last nerf because it was needed. I registered and put this post up because it seems crazy to think another is needed.

[Golliathe]

I would like to suggest that the "things to do" in game have one final entry: seek out Makara in the desert. It is so important to have players be transmuting early on as it lets them make the gear they need instead of getting 5-10 purple/gold drops and then being able to use the most perfect one.


Dailies don't give level 50 gear solo, they are more group oriented, and give money/tokens.

If you go through these missions and open chests you will get a full set of lvl 50 purple/gold gear in time (every so often you can get 55 gear from the missions).

Part of the difficulty of this game for new players is that you can't alter your gear. Being able to reroll attributes makes all the difference in the world.


Please let us go into the same War Cache dungeons with our party mates, even if we need multiple maps. I didn't think this game was the type to have forced solo play. We all want to see the hard work that you put into making these mini dungeons, but if I can't do it with my leveling buddy then I probably never will. Doing separate dungeons is just not as fun.

I really have to agree with this idea. As it stands I'll be skipping the war cache because essentially it becomes solo play (theres already plenty of that, no?). To prevent people from 'dragging' a much lower level character through the content what if you set up the map system so that people in a party could combine 2 smaller maps and make a 'double map?

Since we're on the topic if transmutation anyway... maybe transmutation lvl 10 would be required to use the maps?

I would also rather see the war cache system be something that level 50-60 players can do because really this is one of the big gaps in the game right now. The sewer is crazy hard for lvl 60 characters (poison, roots, gigantic armor hits, stuns). It's a lovely area for a lvl 70 to solo... but a terrible area for a lvl 60 character wearing sub par gear.

In terms of getting a lvl 50 gear set you already have: DC, WN, YC, WC. The average low player may only be able to do 1 or 2 of those missions. But getting a nice purple/gold piece of gear can really be an inspiration and help you in a difficult time for your character. In short a lot of people level up really fast and get close to 50 with much lower level gear. They get stuck in that gear in part because you need the correct mods 10x more on a low piece of gear than you need level appropriate mods for skills you have no interest in using.

The way to get players out of the lvl 50 slump is to get them disenchanting armor in the 15-20 level block. This makes sense thematically as around 15-20 players can solo pretty well in the crypt and blow up greens/blues and work their way up the chain. The mushroom dungeon too becomes a good place for them to level, and learn to blow up items (and learn about inventory space saving techniques).

[Niph]

If you go through these missions and open chests you will get a full set of lvl 50 purple/gold gear in time (every so often you can get 55 gear from the missions).
You don't need to do the daily mission for that. I was saying, dailies require to kill bosses, and don't reward you with gear. They don't serve the purpose of providing level 50 gear obtainable solo. As you state, people should just go to the zone directly.

[Celler]

With regard to the account golem, it would perhaps be nice if when Vip does become available we can activate it with the golem at a time that suits us rather than it automatically starting on introduction.
As I understand it the vip will give us access to a 5th character, I certainly wouldn't be needing that anytime near the wipe as I'll be too busy on my main I'd imagine.
Of course it will depend on the other benefits but as they are supposed to be only really cosmetic I doubt I'll be missing much short term.

Also those that bought certain packages in the past are supposed to be getting 2 extra teleports if my memory serves, are they still a distant hope?


With regard to trans/aug changes I think maybe the lower lvls should be started elsewhere, unless it's changed from when I did it you need to access 4 npcs that spread around and the npc in ilmari.
These are quite deep into the game and can easily be held back by missing certain areas.

[Syndriax]

very interesting chances i will be looking forward to it. that said it's mentioned in the "Horse Lord Package" one would get a title but what happens if you already got a title will you get 2? if yes then what will happen when you /entitle someone will you be able to choose which one they get or will they get both? or something else?

[Citan]

- You can't get two titles because the system can't support it: you can only have one title attached to each account. If you already bought a title package, don't buy another!

- You can't duo War Caches, and I'm not going to delay an already very long development process to try to shoehorn it in somehow, because duoing content is very underused. If you and a friend start together, duo content makes sense, but that's literally the only time duo content gets used. It just doesn't work psychologically. Nobody wants to join a pick-up-duo because it's way too stressful. A large group spreads out the blame and responsibility, and players find it much more acceptable.
I tried for YEARS in pre-alpha to make two-man groups a thing, and then three-man groups, before eventually accepting defeat and doing six-man groups. So that ship has sailed. I try to make content accessible for duoing when convenient, but it's certainly not something that I could conveniently add to War Caches, sorry.

- I feel like the people who think there's already plenty of solo content for the 55-ish level range are completely wrong... to an insane degree, actually. There are literally no solo dungeons for that level range, and the only soloable outdoor content is quite difficult.

- Werewolves will be fine. The updated version improves sustainability, removes annoyances, improves Trauma builds (and tosses out weird remnants like that one Piercing attack). It opens up new options besides the one dumb overpowered build everybody's using.

If your opinion is that the skill isn't overpowered anymore, we'll have to disagree. It's still overpowered in the most extreme setups. (If you aren't using the most extreme setups, then the change won't be as dramatic, but it'll still be a nerf.) Also, comparing one overpowered skill to another overpowered skill really doesn't help your case. Other skills with gigantic burst-damage numbers will also be getting nerfed over time.

Looking at the changes, this actually feels like a buff to the skill, but I'm not going to call it a buff because that would seem disingenuous: werewolf players WILL log in weaker than they were before (assuming they're using the OP build-du-jour), and to get better builds, they will have to remake all their gear, which is tedious and annoying. But after players rebuild, they will be fine in terms of damage and survivability. In the long term, werewolves will not be underpowered.

And if they are, we'll fix them. And if they're still overpowered, we'll nerf them again.

If the idea of rebuilding your entire werewolf setup is too stressful for you, I completely understand. I recommend taking a break from the game and coming back in a while! I'm not trying to be a dick with that recommendation, I'm just telling you what's worked for other players in the past. There's no monthly fee or anything, and your characters will be fine in suspended animation while you're gone, so take a month or two off. By the time you return, other people will have figured out the most-crazy wolf builds anyway and you can copy them if you like.

As for undoing the lycanthropy curse, nope. Never ever happening because permanent choices are permanent. But I am frankly offended by the idea that I'm "forcing" you to use the skill. The beast form is forced on you, but the skill is NEVER forced on you. Have you tried a nice Unarmed/Mentalism build? Werewolves are pretty good at it. There are a dozen other skill combinations available if you really hate the werewolf skill. And as a last resort option, you still have plenty of time to remake your character before the game officially launches. But we will under no circumstances be offering a werewolf "cure". (Or a druid "cure" either!)

[Syndriax]

- You can't get two titles because the system can't support it: you can only have one title attached to each account. If you already bought a title package, don't buy another!

- You can't duo War Caches, and I'm not going to delay an already very long development process to try to shoehorn it in somehow, because duoing content is very underused. If you and a friend start together, duo content makes sense, but that's literally the only time duo content gets used. It just doesn't work psychologically. Nobody wants to join a pick-up-duo because it's way too stressful. A large group spreads out the blame and responsibility, and players find it much more acceptable.
I tried for YEARS in pre-alpha to make two-man groups a thing, and then three-man groups, before eventually accepting defeat and doing six-man groups. So that ship has sailed. I try to make content accessible for duoing when convenient, but it's certainly not something that I could conveniently add to War Caches, sorry.

- I feel like the people who think there's already plenty of solo content for the 55-ish level range are completely wrong... to an insane degree, actually. There are literally no solo dungeons for that level range, and the only soloable outdoor content is quite difficult.

- Werewolves will be fine. The updated version improves sustainability, removes annoyances, improves Trauma builds (and tosses out weird remnants like that one Piercing attack). It opens up new options besides the one dumb overpowered build everybody's using.

If your opinion is that the skill isn't overpowered anymore, we'll have to disagree. It's still overpowered in the most extreme setups. (If you aren't using the most extreme setups, then the change won't be as dramatic, but it'll still be a nerf.) Also, comparing one overpowered skill to another overpowered skill really doesn't help your case. Other skills with gigantic burst-damage numbers will also be getting nerfed over time.

Looking at the changes, this actually feels like a buff to the skill, but I'm not going to call it a buff because that would seem disingenuous: werewolf players WILL log in weaker than they were before (assuming they're using the OP build-du-jour), and to get better builds, they will have to remake all their gear, which is tedious and annoying. But after players rebuild, they will be fine in terms of damage and survivability. In the long term, werewolves will not be underpowered.

And if they are, we'll fix them. And if they're still overpowered, we'll nerf them again.

If the idea of rebuilding your entire werewolf setup is too stressful for you, I completely understand. I recommend taking a break from the game and coming back in a while! I'm not trying to be a dick with that recommendation, I'm just telling you what's worked for other players in the past. There's no monthly fee or anything, and your characters will be fine in suspended animation while you're gone, so take a month or two off. By the time you return, other people will have figured out the most-crazy wolf builds anyway and you can copy them if you like.

As for undoing the lycanthropy curse, nope. Never ever happening because permanent choices are permanent. But I am frankly offended by the idea that I'm "forcing" you to use the skill. The beast form is forced on you, but the skill is NEVER forced on you. Have you tried a nice Unarmed/Mentalism build? Werewolves are pretty good at it. There are a dozen other skill combinations available if you really hate the werewolf skill. And as a last resort option, you still have plenty of time to remake your character before the game officially launches. But we will under no circumstances be offering a werewolf "cure". (Or a druid "cure" either!)

thank you for the answer. i'm really intrigued by Shadow Feint being a fully-controlled short-range teleport and i'm excited to try it out. wish you all the best :3

[cr00cy]

Wait, Trauma builds will get improved? Yes, please. But I'm not sure how I fele about removing piercing attack from wolf kit (Sanguine Fang) it was pretty iconic for trauma builds, and piercign dmage was usefull for certains ituations (liek thsoe portals in WN. Wolf/unarmed build has no other way of killing them, iirc). But if removla of Snaguine Fnags will allow me to commit mass genocide by waitchign my enemies bleed out, then I'll take it.

Also, about Shadow Feint - if I understand it correctly, we will be bale to reactivate it at will, by pressing teh same key again? Well, this is improvment... I think. I'll probably still will not be using it, because cast time, and things like See Red and BotP exist, but hey, who knows.

[Swanzo]

Removing the ONLY piercing attack that wolf has when you pack dungeons with mobs that can ONLY be killed by pierce damage is a HORRIBLE idea. Suddenly there are dungeons you cant even go in anymore.

[Yaffy]

Removing the ONLY piercing attack that wolf has when you pack dungeons with mobs that can ONLY be killed by pierce damage is a HORRIBLE idea. Suddenly there are dungeons you cant even go in anymore.

This applies to a lot of different skills already. That doesn't stop people from going into Winter Nexus.

[Tagamogi]

(liek thsoe portals in WN. Wolf/unarmed build has no other way of killing them, iirc).


Stake the Heart is a side bar option for piercing damage - less convenient and more expensive but the portals don't have a lot of health, so it should be possible to take them down with a single stake. I haven't tried the Winter Nexus specifically but I had a great time soloing the Animal Nexus as cow/unarmed with a bit of staking side damage.

(I don't know enough about werewolves to comment meaningfully on anything else. It seems a bit odd to me that an animal with big sharp teeth doesn't do at least some piercing damage.)

Edit: Spore bombs could be another option for the spy portals.

[Swanzo]

This applies to a lot of different skills already. That doesn't stop people from going into Winter Nexus.

These dungeons are already too hard for the level they are supposed to be done at. Sure you can totally out gear the place but that being a requirement is dumb. The game is already too much about just level up and max all your skills and come back later as it is.

[Citan]

No combat skill should have access to all three physical damage types. That was an error and will be fixed anywhere it occurs. In general a skill shouldn't use more than three damage types, actually. Certain skills (such as Archery) have access to a wide range of damage types, but those skills have counterbalancing down sides which lycanthropy definitely doesn't have.

Yes, that means sometimes you have to struggle to figure out how to defeat content. Hey, good thing the Winter Nexus is a GROUP DUNGEON right? Almost like one person can counteract the weaknesses of someone else. :)

[Swanzo]

That doesnt make any sense to me Lycan is a permanent choice with permanent downsides while archery doesnt. Archery already does far more damage than lycan with zero permanent downsides.

It's also not a matter of the one skill but the possible combinations with other skills that makes archery even stronger. Lycan has a very limited number of skills to combine with.

[INXS]

Archery one of the broken skills in game access to many different elemental damage, DPS, all very true i can solo Winter Nexus with my archer can solo the WN daily too. Since when making arrows with fletching worse than a 3 day uninterrupted curse being Lycan? I can make arrow boxes anytime i can place them anywhere i want and i can pick them up whenever.

[Loggy]

Citian,


There was mod that added piercing damage to a Hammer skill, Not sure if that is intended or mistake.

Archery is a pain in the butt and most mmos ranged does most dps and archery has always been at the top. They do not need to nerf the damage but maybe the damage type. Poison is good, piercing is good, that should be it. The downside to archery which is permanent is the cost associated with it. Again changes will be made that make people happy and sad, but nothing should make you feel like just giving up. Relax and enjoy the game.

[Swanzo]

Citian,


There was mod that added piercing damage to a Hammer skill, Not sure if that is intended or mistake.

Archery is a pain in the butt and most mmos ranged does most dps and archery has always been at the top. They do not need to nerf the damage but maybe the damage type. Poison is good, piercing is good, that should be it. The downside to archery which is permanent is the cost associated with it. Again changes will be made that make people happy and sad, but nothing should make you feel like just giving up. Relax and enjoy the game.

The cost is a minor inconvenience which is not permanent you can switch to a different skill and it will never affect you ever again. Currently the only skill in the game that I can think of a person ever creating a new character over is Lycan because of the downsides. No one would ever create a new character because they took archery. If that is the measure of how powerful a skill should be then Lycan should be the most powerful skill in the game.

[DamageIncorp]

Tired of seeing all the complaining. Leave archery alone please. You guys complain til you get your way.

[Swanzo]

Tired of seeing all the complaining. Leave archery alone please. You guys complain til you get your way.

I'm tired of seeing all this archery should be the most powerful skill in the game because they have to make arrows boo freaking hoo. Its ranged, does the most damage, has many different damage types, its an offhand weapon which can be combined with many other skills and you can drop at any time with no repercussions.

[srand]

Okay, folks - this isn't the right thread to snipe at each other about archery.

Let's bring the discussion back to the dev blog and try to keep things civil.

[INXS]

Alright, why on earth would you tie Pound to Slag to rage? Can Hammer skill have just one good ability that isn't tied to something? Do you know why Hammer skill was hit the hardest out of all the skills? Because everything in Hammer skill is tied to a condition or buff from another ability. Already now we got Leaping Smash getting disrupted by others and Seismic Impact or Rib Shatter bonus damage fails then you go use Pound to Slag and since Rage can be changed fast in a group you fail there to hit on bonus, multiple fails in seconds. Here we had a nerfed epic ability that needed some love and what happened! Does Cosmic Strike have a condition? How about Heavy Shot or Fire Breath yeah didn't think so.

[ProfessorCat]

Cosmic strike is conditional to the target becoming vulnerable, which is much less controllable than a rage meter, because it's a random effect, save two mods in the game, one of which is another conditional attack, the other has a 1 minute timer.

Pound to slag is the only epic attack in the game with a mod to make it an aoe.

Not at all bashing hammer. I love the skill, and look forward to the changes it will have in the next patch.

The point is, most every skill has a gimmic, or conditional status to make it more powerful. I believe this adds a lot of dynamic and creativity during combat.

I love the fact that I can be rewarded with better damage output by being more aware of the combat situation. If this changes, and there exists a build with zero synergy or circumstantial damage, and that build is also top dps, then there would be a balance issue.

I believe this is why wolf is being addressed. Theres no gimmick of a full moon. It's a quest that results in permanent buffs until the next full moon.

To me the full moon is comparable to hopology for staff, buckle artistry for hammer, calligraphy/mediation for sword/unarmed, the lore skill for elemental damage, and the list goes on for most combat skills. It's more of an enhancement opportunity that you can take or leave.

Combat skills almost all have gimmicks. If a vanilla build with no real synergy existed, and started out dpsing all other builds, I would imagine that skill ends up in a dev blog for rebalancing.

When hammer accidentally got the short straw of a systemic damage recalculation, a ton of fingers pointed at wolf in protest. That was really unfortunate from our player base, and I hope wasn't the catalyst for the new wolf nerf.

The more we demand damage recalculation and adjustments to level 70 content, the less time we allow the developers to create new maps, new levels, and new skills.

Personally, I also think a lot of the "balance" issues should be sidelined until we have level 80+ content. Why? Because the new levels will introduce new balancing issues, and id rather us get to that point instead of pointing fingers at skills we don't main.

Citan and srand are bending over backwards for the concensus of this community, which is a blessing we are all lucky to have. Let's focus on game content suggestions and quality of life suggestions over which skill hits the hardest!

[Silvonis]

We do everything that we can to warn everyone that permanent means permanent in Project: Gorgon. If we declare something permanent, please understand that it's permanent. There's no ifs, ands, or buts.

[INXS]

How about increase the severity of the warning? I mean how about like when you delete a character you get a second window got to type name in if it's permanent it should make a person think twice about getting it. I don't think there's enough info on the consequences of getting beside a red this is permanent.

[Loggy]

I think the warning is fine ....You need t type the name of your char to delete it anyway , so that is a second tier instead of just delete...

[Swanzo]

Cosmic strike is conditional to the target becoming vulnerable, which is much less controllable than a rage meter, because it's a random effect, save two mods in the game, one of which is another conditional attack, the other has a 1 minute timer.

Pound to slag is the only epic attack in the game with a mod to make it an aoe.

Not at all bashing hammer. I love the skill, and look forward to the changes it will have in the next patch.

The point is, most every skill has a gimmic, or conditional status to make it more powerful. I believe this adds a lot of dynamic and creativity during combat.

I love the fact that I can be rewarded with better damage output by being more aware of the combat situation. If this changes, and there exists a build with zero synergy or circumstantial damage, and that build is also top dps, then there would be a balance issue.

I believe this is why wolf is being addressed. Theres no gimmick of a full moon. It's a quest that results in permanent buffs until the next full moon.

To me the full moon is comparable to hopology for staff, buckle artistry for hammer, calligraphy/mediation for sword/unarmed, the lore skill for elemental damage, and the list goes on for most combat skills. It's more of an enhancement opportunity that you can take or leave.

Combat skills almost all have gimmicks. If a vanilla build with no real synergy existed, and started out dpsing all other builds, I would imagine that skill ends up in a dev blog for rebalancing.

When hammer accidentally got the short straw of a systemic damage recalculation, a ton of fingers pointed at wolf in protest. That was really unfortunate from our player base, and I hope wasn't the catalyst for the new wolf nerf.

The more we demand damage recalculation and adjustments to level 70 content, the less time we allow the developers to create new maps, new levels, and new skills.

Personally, I also think a lot of the "balance" issues should be sidelined until we have level 80+ content. Why? Because the new levels will introduce new balancing issues, and id rather us get to that point instead of pointing fingers at skills we don't main.

Citan and srand are bending over backwards for the concensus of this community, which is a blessing we are all lucky to have. Let's focus on game content suggestions and quality of life suggestions over which skill hits the hardest!

Wolf has already been nerfed badly in the previous patch and they announced another nerf and asked for feedback. Do they want feedback or not you cant have it both ways.

[ProfessorCat]

Wolf has already been nerfed badly in the previous patch and they announced another nerf and asked for feedback. Do they want feedback or not you cant have it both ways.

Feedback looks constructive, offering solutions, and even damage number comparisons. "I main wolf, and have a fully modded level 70 build. Wolf used to be able to do x amount of damage, and the same attack now does y amount of damage after the nerf. I am no longer able to survive taking on two mobs in rahu sewers where previously I could survive 4 at a time"

Complaining looks like:
"hammer sucks now, what about wolf? I've never played wolf, but they've been op since forever! It's not fair, and I want my blanket!"

Suggestions fill into the same two buckets. My request was to focus on quality of life and content suggestions, because when an entire skill needs to get recalculated due to complaints, it takes away time from development that, in my opinion, is better spent on NEW content instead of OLD content. Especially when we're talking about content that will be outdated as soon as level 80 is released.

[cr00cy]

Wolf has already been nerfed badly in the previous patch and they announced another nerf and asked for feedback. Do they want feedback or not you cant have it both ways.

I peronally didn't felt this nerf that badly. Sure, I can't 1-shot 5+ mobs in Gazluk anymore, but I think this is fair. And, even though it migth be unpopular opinion, I'm glad Skulk is getign nerfed even more. Last nerf wasn't aimed directly at Lycan - after all it was result of dmage forumal changing, so it affected every skill. Some got hit by it harder, some less.

I saw some people sayign werewolf got 'unplayable' after last patch. I find it a bit strange, since, like I said, I didn't noticed much change. In fact, my Wolf/unarmed build got more fun, since I actually have reason to use other skills than Skulk+barrgae, and maybe Bite to finish off stragglers. Thsi migth ebbecause I invested a lot into Trama dmage, so mayeb I ddin't get affected by this change that much.

In my opinion, Skulk shoudl be nefed even more, and 'power budged' it was takign up should be shifted to other skills. Citan already mentioned that Trauma builds will be getting stronger, which makes me happy. Overall. I reserve my judgment for those change suntill I get to see numbers, and, more importantly, get to play with them. Because untill that happens, there is no way to tell if Lycan will be stronger, or weaker.

[Swanzo]

Per dev blog:
The changes to Lycanthropy are more in-depth. Werewolves are capable of dealing too much damage right now, so this update is a nerf to werewolves.

I want to see numbers to explain how lycan currently does too much damage when compared to what other skills do such as archery.

I didnt have anything to say about the last nerf because the damage was too high. We aren't talking about if the last nerf should of happened we are talking about the next planned nerf on top of it.

People keep bringing up pre nerf lycan damage like the last nerf never happened. Another nerf at current damage levels makes no sense.

[Dibbuk]

-

- Werewolves will be fine. The updated version improves sustainability, removes annoyances, improves Trauma builds (and tosses out weird remnants like that one Piercing attack). It opens up new options besides the one dumb overpowered build everybody's using.

If your opinion is that the skill isn't overpowered anymore, we'll have to disagree. It's still overpowered in the most extreme setups. (If you aren't using the most extreme setups, then the change won't be as dramatic, but it'll still be a nerf.) Also, comparing one overpowered skill to another overpowered skill really doesn't help your case. Other skills with gigantic burst-damage numbers will also be getting nerfed over time.



With great respect for all that you are doing, and not interested in starting a flame war, I have to take exception to this point.

If Lycanthropy is OP in extreme setups, then adjust the extreme setup. There is no need to nerf an entire class for some rare combination of items that they may never be able to acquire. This is especially true if all weapons and armor will go "poof" later. You have used legacy in the past to balance setups with other classes.

I will happily discuss this in detail through private email if you wish.

[Loggy]

I think the player base needs to Relax a bit. Things happen and change over time. You will get used to it. It is how games are made. Make changes you the devs say make sense. Bringing up things that are not related to the blog or the next patch just takes away from what they are trying to do for us. Be thankful

[Jester]

I'm just happy to hear about this change to shadow feint. Sounds fucking awesome!

[Swanzo]

I think the player base needs to Relax a bit. Things happen and change over time. You will get used to it. It is how games are made. Make changes you the devs say make sense. Bringing up things that are not related to the blog or the next patch just takes away from what they are trying to do for us. Be thankful

They asked for the feedback. They should be thankful that we give feedback and money to help them develop the game. I run my own business and I would never expect my customers to be thankful to me for the pleasure of being allowed to give me money.

[Golliathe]

That doesnt make any sense to me Lycan is a permanent choice with permanent downsides while archery doesnt. Archery already does far more damage than lycan with zero permanent downsides.

It's also not a matter of the one skill but the possible combinations with other skills that makes archery even stronger. Lycan has a very limited number of skills to combine with.

Archery has two main problems:

1. Arrows cost inventory space
2. Making arrows uses up a valuable resource (aka spruce costs money to use)

Both aspects cost you money in the long run.


The only thing really broken about archery is that you can use it to solo in Gazluk. I assume that is on the list of things Citan wants to remove from the game. You have so many options here it's not even funny. You can fight a target at range and wait for it to attack you. When it close you can snare it so that its movement becomes near zero. This gives you plenty of time to backup and fight the mob while getting hit only a few times (even more problematic than root). You can mez that target if it still isnt dead (but load it up with dots first so it still can't attack back!) or if your damage is really high you wont need that so you save mez for adds. This setup is currently more powerful than it seems because of a very broken/bugged armor piece.


As for lycan losing pierce.... why did it have pierce? Wolf isn't saber tooth wolf. I knew wolf was broken because I had seen people solo content in ways that was just wrong (like some 4 legs one shotting the scion in wolf cave). Looking back I was waiting for the lycan wolf from so long ago; it was clear to me because there were so many abusive things that are finally getting fixed.

I have faith in that the developer is talking to us and has said he is fixing wolf next patch (and if not like the man said it will be eventually)

Wolf/priest became a popular choice because both of those classes were beyond OP compared to other options. Not to call out another class for the chopping lock but priest has too many good things and not enough bad things to make it balanced. As to not hijack the thread I'll make a new one.


Citan

I disagree about this game not having solo 50 content. The front of Kur tower is solo 50 content (and even gives you 45-50 loot). Maybe you didn't want it to be or didn't build it that way but that's how most people use it. The mushroom dungeon is solo 50 content. Wait What? You heard me.... that dungeon is fantastic to level up lvl 50+ skills (and even better for a split level 25/50 power level session). Maybe this is a problem with the game but killing low level things super fast can often get you more xp than fighting on level things. If you manipulate this by having one skill capped you can raise the other skill stupidly fast. The area past the fog is good solo content for lvl 50 characters in the goblin dungeon. For this one I have no idea what level you intended it to be but you can really level up yourself, or a friend to be power leveled quite fast here in lvl 50 skills/gear.

I'm half being serious and half joking here because what ends up happening is I sorta feel bad if I monopolize some of these zones when people are trying to use them @ appropriate level. I would argue that the game needs an area targeted for level 70 solo characters without really annoying environmental effects more than it needs a new level 50 solo area. Two well geared players leveling up a new class (what else do lvl 70 characters do) can make it so no one else can get much out of Kur tower. One player can do the same for the mushroom dungeon @ lvl 50 or a little lower. The goblin dungeon has enough room for about 4 fast clearing people.

In short: It's beneficial for well geared players to farm in low areas - thus creating a problem for people wanting to use appropriate level areas.


It will be cool for lvl 50 characters to have a new area designed just for them. New areas are a huge yay overall!
I have 2 hopes for this content

1) you allow two players to join maps, maybe 3 maps becomes a map for 2 people (via changes/additions down the line). I own a ton of games on steam that I play with one friend and when that friend isn't on I almost never play those games. As you are trying to make it for yourself in PG getting to level 50 it feels like one of those kinds of games (and really stops the day you don a max enchanted armor set so you can go stomp everything that isnt Gazluk keep).

2) Could we have some graves for corpse talking in these dungeons? It would be so nice to have at least one outlet for corpses to teach 50-70 type skills.

[Celler]

I think you kind of got it right golliathe,
Even now at lvl 70 when training a lvl 60 skill its often much easier to smash kur tower, or the elementals in goblin than it is to go where the effort is more yet the exp is less.
Which is fun for us , but honestly how long can it continue it's better we have other options so the newer folk can have there dungeons back.

With regard to archery there is another drawback though late game you'll probably not notice if you have levelled other stuff. Endurance raises on you being hit, if you play a range skill as your starting skill set it will lag behind and you'll miss out on some of the benefits.
It is strange how folks say archery is great now, to me I'll always miss the hook pull that did not aggro other mobs, I used to love pulling out rak mages to smash them. Rather than have them peppering me whilst I deal with the masses now.
My bow is dusty though now.

The Spider Xbow Harness still appears broken, It never drops and I can't find the recipe anywhere. So that probably needs fixing :)

[Illmaster]

I love the changes to shadow feint. Sounds like it will be really fun coming up with new fighting strategies.

As far as the extreme Lycan builds are concerned: What if you changed the bonus damage on skulk to Armor damage? Then we can merge pouncing rend with skulk. Doing armor damage would still be really useful and it would potentially limit the ability to one shot kill the higher level bosses.

Someone on this thread asked why Sanguine Fangs does piercing damage. The reason is because wolf canine teeth are designed to pierce in order to hold onto prey. The molars are designed to crush while the incisors are meant to shear. So having Sanguine Fangs deal piercing damage while regular Bite deal crushing damage makes sense.

[INXS]

Golliathe a lumber arrangement and some lumber booze i can gather about 80-100 spruce in one food cycle in Gaz, easy. I'm sitting on 300-400 elegant fletchings, around 80-100 of: copper ore, arrowheads, acid cleans needed for arrows. I'ts very low maintenance only draw back with archery is the time you have to wait for arrow shafts to dry.......

[Tagamogi]

I disagree about this game not having solo 50 content. The front of Kur tower is solo 50 content (and even gives you 45-50 loot). Maybe you didn't want it to be or didn't build it that way but that's how most people use it. The mushroom dungeon is solo 50 content. Wait What? You heard me.... that dungeon is fantastic to level up lvl 50+ skills (and even better for a split level 25/50 power level session). Maybe this is a problem with the game but killing low level things super fast can often get you more xp than fighting on level things. If you manipulate this by having one skill capped you can raise the other skill stupidly fast. The area past the fog is good solo content for lvl 50 characters in the goblin dungeon. For this one I have no idea what level you intended it to be but you can really level up yourself, or a friend to be power leveled quite fast here in lvl 50 skills/gear.

I disagree on the disagreement... um, you know what I mean. I hope. In my opinion, if something should be considered a level 50 zone, it needs to commonly drop level 50 gear. So, to me, not the mushroom cave, not the goblin dungeon, and I wouldn't really put Kur Tower into that category either since the vast majority of the loot I get there is lower than level 50.

My usual lazy leveling path is goblin dungeon > Kur Tower > Gazluk Caves. I've been moving to Gazluk in the high 50s when Kur becomes way too easy, which means that I can't actually use the gear that drops in the cave and usually also that I'm using some amazing level 35 ring in Gazluk that I picked up in Kur and was unable to replace. Those leftover pieces of 35 gear don't hurt my ability to do the Gazluk Caves but it just feels a bit embarrassing.

I get what you are saying about the lower level places still being great xp, but I think gear is an important consideration, in particular if someone's leveling up for the first time.



I I would argue that the game needs an area targeted for level 70 solo characters without really annoying environmental effects more than it needs a new level 50 solo area.

What's wrong with the Gazluk Caves? I've been happily dragging my alts out to them without any winter gear or fire or blankets whatsoever (but with speed buffs and mushroom circle bind in New Prestonbule). To me, they are a totally awesome place to solo, if maybe more level 65ish than strictly 70. I might very eventually like a solo area that drops level 70 gear rather than 60-65 but since I don't really play at max level anyway it's not been a concern for me.



Two well geared players leveling up a new class (what else do lvl 70 characters do)

Level up two new skills at once because leveling is fun? ;) Ok, I appear to be a minority here.



It will be cool for lvl 50 characters to have a new area designed just for them. New areas are a huge yay overall!
I have 2 hopes for this content

1) you allow two players to join maps, maybe 3 maps becomes a map for 2 people (via changes/additions down the line). I own a ton of games on steam that I play with one friend and when that friend isn't on I almost never play those games. As you are trying to make it for yourself in PG getting to level 50 it feels like one of those kinds of games (and really stops the day you don a max enchanted armor set so you can go stomp everything that isnt Gazluk keep).

I'm really looking forward to the War Caches too. I would like the ability to bring in other people, but I can also see that turn into either more complaints ("why can I bring one friend but not two?") or a faceroll situation ("after I invited my five friends, this solo dungeon became way too easy").

I think eventually we'll see more level 50s content - maybe a big open dungeon that doesn't need a group like Lab, or maybe the Ilmari desert will get revamped to have more outdoor content. ( I guess Ilmari currently meets my definition of a level 50 zone, it's just that the mobs are spread out so far, it's really not a place I'd try and level since I'd spend far more time running than fighting.)

Once we have more open level 50 stuff, the War Caches being solo may not be an issue at all.



2) Could we have some graves for corpse talking in these dungeons? It would be so nice to have at least one outlet for corpses to teach 50-70 type skills.
Ooh, I'd love corpse talking to go higher than 50, wherever the graves are. ( Well, ok, wherever the graves are other than a level 70 group zone.) Corpse talking is my favorite skill.

[Swanzo]

Golliathe after the nerf that already occurred lycan cant do the kind of damage you describe. This exactly what I'm talking about. People acting like the previous nerf didn't happen.

[Karura]

I don't know about the nerf that happened previous to this upcoming one. I joined the gamed not on the last full moon, but the one previous, which must have been after said nerf. However, I will share my experience so far with Lycan hopefully this will provide good feedback.


Ability Breakdown,
Claw:
Pros - Is a combat refresh ability with the standard 15 second refresh, and does a little extra damage to vulnerable targets, costs no power, and has very small animation cast time.
Cons - Doesn't do a whole lot of damage, higher lvl mobs rarely are vulnerable, if you're out of power in a fight and this is your only skill available, you will most likely die since the power return isn't enough for other combat abilities power consumption unmodded. There is a slight animation cast time with the standing animation, sometimes the monster can run out of range during the animation causing the attack to trigger doing no damage. Level locked until altar of Norala.

Bite:
Pros - It's a core attack, has a mod to make it AoE, has a very small to almost no animation cast time for its burst attack.
Cons - Does small damage unmodded on low lvl mobs, can give an error often if a monster is running or slightly out of or behind you in the 5m biting range, which triggers the skill anyway doing no damage, and using up a medium amount of power. Level locked until altar of Norala.

Pack Attack:
Pros - Is a signature debuff ability allowing you to deal slightly more damage the next time you use the same ability on a target, is sort of a party debuff allowing other Lycans with the same active ability to do slightly more damage as well in that regard.
Cons - Does small damage unmodded on low lvl mobs. There is a slight animation cast time with the leaping animation, sometimes the monster can run out of range during the animation causing the attack to trigger doing no damage, and using up a lot of power regardless. Level locked until altar of Norala.

Pouncing Rake:
Pros - Is a CC type ability which stuns a target below 33% armor. Will convert damage into partial armor damage if armor on monster is full instead.
Cons - Does small damage unmodded on low lvl mobs. Can be evaded, if monster armor is 34% it wont stun, has same problem if monster moves out of range during animation it will trigger anyway consuming power. Level locked until altar of Norala.

Howl Mode:
Pros - Gives enhanced in and out of combat regeneration, is sort of a werewolf party buff can stack with other werewolves howling up to 6hrs? 1hr solo otherwise. Boosts damage, by a few points changed one skill from 501 to 507 damage.
Cons - Takes a few minutes to get it to full duration period, has to be out of combat to not have the howl stop howling.

Shadow Feint:
Pros - Can teleport a player back to a safe spot when monters = more than 1, giving an edge to running away or pulling a monster/boss.
Cons - Has a 1 second cast time, in reality its like 1.3-1.5 because of the howling animation, 5 hits could kill you before you teleport back, aside from pulling or fleeing it isn't used.

Pouncing Rend:
Pros - Is the better version of Pouncing Rake, does only armor damage and the stun is calculated after the armor damage is done - so if you deal damage enough to get that monsters armor below 33% it will stun. Does decent armor damage modded. Is a fun skill to leap at a monster and have them stop dead in their tracks.
Cons - Does small armor damage unmodded to low lvl monsters, has an animation cast time that again during the animation if a monster runs out of range will trigger the skill regardless while consuming power, and not actually doing any damage. can be evaded, is a monster drop ability book.

See Red:
Pros - is a skill buff to do 10% more slashing and piercing damage for 30 seconds, can be modded to also heal, restore armor, or add a little extra damage.
Cons - Has an animation cast time of about 1.5-2seconds. Takes awhile to get this skill since its an advanced ability from Sanja.

Skulk:
Pros - Makes you harder to detect to monsters, gives a damage bonus for next attack (sort of like a stealth class sneak attack?).
Cons - Has an animation cast time of about 1.5-2seconds, reduced sprint speed by -50% making it easier for the next attack to have an out of range error, since monsters move a lot faster in combat than a player unmodded. Costs a lot of power. Takes awhile to get this skill since its an advanced ability from Sanja.

Blood of the Pack:
Pros - Is a signature support ability, heals you unmodded, and give +% to trauma damage.
Cons - Has an animation cast time of about 1.5-2seconds, consumes a lot of power, trauma damage is ineffective to a lot of monsters, takes awhile to get this skill since its an advanced ability from Sanja, and is lvl locked until altar of Norala.

Sanguine Fangs:
Pros - Is a nice attack, deals piercing damage, causes trauma damage.
Cons - Does small damage unmodded on low lvl mobs, can give an error often if a monster is running or slightly out of or behind you in the 5m biting range, which triggers the skill anyway doing no damage, and using up a medium amount of power. takes awhile to get this skill since its an advanced ability from Sanja, and the last version is a book drop. The DoT isn't sustainable enough damage.

Double Claw:
Pros - Has a fast reuse time, is low power cost, can be decent damage wise as a follow up ability.
Cons- There is a slight animation cast time with the standing animation, sometimes the monster can run out of range during the animation causing the attack to trigger doing no damage, and using up a lot of power regardless. damage is subtracted by how much armor a monster has. takes awhile to get this skill since its an advanced ability from Sanja.

Smell Fear:
Pros - reduces rage on a monster/boss, has a very small to almost no animation cast time for its burst attack.
Cons - Does small damage unmodded on low lvl mobs, can give an error often if a monster is running or slightly out of or behind you in the 5m biting range, which triggers the skill anyway doing no damage, and using up a medium amount of power. Is a book drop and advanced ability from Sanja.


Other:
Werewolf Armor
Pros: Makes you into a meat shield being able to tank some hits, sort of. Looks amazing,
Cons: Really hard to lvl the necessary requirements to even begin crafting (lv35 goblinese, lv48 toolcrafting, lv72 blacksmithing, lv58 surveying, lv50 geology, foragaing up do cedar, like family favor with Kodan who only gives decent favor with master metal slabs unless you want to farm 1000 figurines etc... and all favor likewise with the respected crafts mentioned above including the fairy in WN), takes roughly 400k in recipe costs, and another 600k in materials. Leaving wolf form unequips all your armor making you naked, and having to equip them each time. Makes the untransformation into another playable skill impossible since you are 1 shot away while being naked to death.


Overall:
To me werewolf abilities feel a little broken, the class skill line feels well rounded and balanced at low lvls, but quickly becomes linear and backs you into a corner at lv50+ when all of a sudden you can't progress until a full moon, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, just an inconvenience. This is why I think many people go for the hard to acquire modding to boost the only AoE attack "Bite" with skulk, see red, and blood of the pack etc... 4 months to lvl70 is a long long time, at least for me. Wolves don't like being backed into a corner, and in order to keep up with guild members, and other players who started around the time you did, who still expect you to go to the hard dungeons with them... a solution had to be made. It isn't hard to lvl to lvl70, it took me less than a week to get from1-50 and 50-60 less than a day which is a huge advantage for other players who don't get lvl locked into full moon periods totaling 4 months. I for one am glad for the rebalancing, I hope the other abilities become less useless doing more sustainable damage at high lvls and high lvl content, and the skill line itself then wont be so linear feeling. I look forward to the said changes, but hope that other players wont complain so much it destroys the class like I've seen in other games from peoples butt hurt feelings against 1 persons hard work to have an advantage. The new solo content sounds awesome, hopefully Lycan can actually solo it after this lol (I am still a little skeptical of the nerf/rebalancing... time will tell).

Things I hope are getting fixed outside of rebalancing in next patch and near future:
The animation cast time range errors,
The SFX of Skulk, (I think this is already happening)
The Darkvision in the daylight not being a thing, (epileptic seizures aren't fun, also eyes adjust in real life for animals to their environments. same with us).
The Eating Corpses during a fight, (is happening!)

[Golliathe]

Golliathe a lumber arrangement and some lumber booze i can gather about 80-100 spruce in one food cycle in Gaz, easy. I'm sitting on 300-400 elegant fletchings, around 80-100 of: copper ore, arrowheads, acid cleans needed for arrows. I'ts very low maintenance only draw back with archery is the time you have to wait for arrow shafts to dry.......

Arrows cost money. We can derive that by noting that it takes time to collect arrows as well as time to make them.

Just to be clear here... you are using 2 end game buffs (booze/flowers) and collect a ton of spruce. How much spruce do you get without those buffs? When we're looking at cost you need to add those buffs to the cost of how much money you use. Good displays for example are not cheap and can be sold for a lot of money. Likewise instead of 'pissing that spruce into the wind' you could have sold it on the player market. You probably had to gather some rare crap that took time to make the booze and you either bought the display or gathered more rare crap for that too.

How many arrows do you use in say 2 hours of fighting? Assume we are talking about a Gazluk Keep run where the pulls stop maybe 2-3 times the whole run?

How many arrows do you use if in 2 hours if you are somewhat chill and partially fighting about half the time with low key effort?

The answer really doesn't matter. The point is you have to go out and do something to maintain your power. That thing you need to do costs you time that time could have been spent doing something else. The resources you gathered in that time are essentially sacrificed instead of sold for great profit. For a more casual player this could have drastic repercussions; do I go spend my last 30 minutes of play today gathering arrows so I have some for tomorrow or do I go gather my 24 hour cooldown crystals?

For Necromancy, mentalism, fire magic, battle chemistry and everything else.... I paid some councils and my power lasts forever.

If I want to shoot arrows I have to spend money. As an archer you are literally an aurumancer shooting potential profit out of your bow.

Let's consider 2 guilds. Guild A is all archers who always play archery and maybe a secondary skill. Guild B has no archers. Assume each guild is made of 50 people all level 70. Assume both guilds have equal levels of activity in terms of combat hours logged and money earned as well as spent per members as a function of time (outside of archery).

After a year which guild will have more money? The answer is guild B. Guild A will have spent a ridiculous sum on arrows after one year (*when we say 'spent' consider the idea of theoretical money lost by not selling an item*). People are not machines and will miss some of things they meant to harvest that were on a cooldown. In the case of a casual player you might lose 25k worth one night because you didn't get your crystals and instead made more arrows.

[Golliathe]

Golliathe after the nerf that already occurred lycan cant do the kind of damage you describe. This exactly what I'm talking about. People acting like the previous nerf didn't happen.

I'm not acting like that at all. I feel super bad that anyone's gameplay was ruined by this patch. Wolf got hit with a nerf at the same time all powers got a recalculation event with how % modifiers work.

There were some people who were acting like, "wolf was fine how could you do this?!" And in the next breath they would tell you wolf deserves this damage because it is a permanent choice.

It was clear to me ages ago that wolf was broken and the mighty nerf hammer would eventually strike it down. My game play has been negatively affected by wolf for a very long time as it was very easy for the wolf to just run through mobs (training if necessary) and skipping rudely ahead to kill the boss we were clearing to fight in a few pulls.

It's not quite the same but im sure people would say the same to me for monopolizing areas before the aoe nerf.

Karura not to burst your bubble but all classes start to feel the pinch at level 50. Do you have transmutation/augmentation at 50? I doubt it. You can pretty easily kill level 70 content with a 100% perfect rolled/augmented level 50 gear set (assuming you have a good class/build synergy - not 2 random things). The irony is that it is faster to level up from 50 to 70 than it is to collect a perfectly rolled level 50 set.

[Golliathe]

Even now at lvl 70 when training a lvl 60 skill its often much easier to smash kur tower, or the elementals in goblin than it is to go where the effort is more yet the exp is less.
Which is fun for us , but honestly how long can it continue it's better we have other options so the newer folk can have there dungeons back.


I was being slightly funny but I was trying to point out a few things:
1. Noob enemy bashing might be too beneficial
2. Noob enemy bashing ruins areas for people at the appropriate level
3. It would be great if there was an area that discourages lvl 70 players to fight anywhere but there instead of go bash noob areas. This area of course would not have bullshitty environment mechanics.

I dream of a lvl 70 area - maybe a big cave with some graves to talk to... mushrooms, high level cave fish/shark and no really annoying elements to contend with. Ok maybe have a water hazard where theres one part that you gotta swim underwater for a while to get to the air pocket; during that swim some enemies may attack you... so certain classes would really not like going down there (fire/mental/bc/archery). One of the enemies of course would be a shark so a player might go oh let me catch that shark... oops thats an attack shark.


I disagree on the disagreement... um, you know what I mean. I hope. In my opinion, if something should be considered a level 50 zone, it needs to commonly drop level 50 gear. So, to me, not the mushroom cave, not the goblin dungeon, and I wouldn't really put Kur Tower into that category either since the vast majority of the loot I get there is lower than level 50.

A first time player at level 50 is going to be wearing some >45 gear and some 50 gear. The transition from low game to mid game isn't instantaneous. Most people do not have trans/aug so gear they pick up for certain slots MUST HAVE A SPECIFIC MOD.... or it is trash. Kur/Yeti drop mostly 45 but drop some 55 gear. The end of the goblin area drops 45-50 gear. Just about every class needs 1-2 specific mods leveling up and you will keep stuff you shouldn't because you dont know how trans/aug work OR they simply are not available to you.

You are welcome to disagree but the state of places for people in the '50' block is quite healthy: last 2 areas of goblin, kur tower, wolf cave, Winter Nexus. I jokingly state the mushroom cave is a level 50 area but if that zone is empty and the others are busy you can make as much if not more xp there than you could elsewhere depending on your gear (note* as your gear gets better and better you will get less xp/time in mushroom as the levels get longer and you can kill everything better so killing a higher hp mob eventually becomes nearly the same effort as a low hp mob. When that happens you stop going to the shroom area).




What's wrong with the Gazluk Caves? I've been happily dragging my alts out to them without any winter gear or fire or blankets whatsoever (but with speed buffs and mushroom circle bind in New Prestonbule). To me, they are a totally awesome place to solo, if maybe more level 65ish than strictly 70. I might very eventually like a solo area that drops level 70 gear rather than 60-65 but since I don't really play at max level anyway it's not been a concern for me.

Nothing is wrong with the caves.... except there isnt a merchant nearby. They are out in the boonies for new characters that wont have the 2 easy to get to Gazluk teleport abilities. And there is the cold to contend with as well as the lvl 70 monsters most people cant kill when they actually get to that area.

In other words a lot of time is spent running there to get to the event. You stay a little while and then have to run back to civilization.



Level up two new skills at once because leveling is fun? ;) Ok, I appear to be a minority here.


Why on earth would you do that? a friend of mine was telling me she was averaging 30 min/level in a specific spot all the way up to level 68 by power leveling herself using zero pieces of gear for the 'off class'. You're basically resetting yourself to like level 15 to train up 2 new skills. Yuck.

[Celler]

The quote above you claim is mine regarding levelling 2 skills together is actually from Tagamogi not me.

But we are here to have fun at the end of the day and if folks get fun from a playstyle that is not as many use then good for them.

I like your friend perhaps often train unmodded skills with a BC set of gear with endurance and generic mods .This way the gear is suitable for buffing the BC skillbar and the other mods add something at least to whatever I maybe raising on the 2nd bar.


With regard to players in low lvl areas, almost everywhere offers some useful stuff, for example lower kur tower will give ancient stencil,stomachs and red rose seeds there all of some use.
I think so long as folks are respectful to others in there its not such a big thing.
But charging around ignoring every corpse just to maximize your exp gain is never gonna make you popular with those around you, I don't encourage folks to bury stuff that is there choice, but at the same time treating everything as if it's there for you and fuck everyone else is only gonna make you unpopular.

[srand]

Thank you, everyone, for all of your feedback - and the interesting discussion it engendered. I think we've extracted what we can from for the moment, so I'm closing this thread now before we start going in more circles. Thank you again!