Price controls

[Golliathe]

What do you guys think about the player market?

Let me limit the scope of that question a bit and ask:

1. How do you feel about market monopolies and price gouging?

For all its flaws one thing I thought was neat about black desert was that there was a maximum and minimum you could price items to sell in the market. Let's not mention the other market flaws as this game isn't even close in structure in that regard.

The simple question is how would you feel if stomachs could be sold on player vendors for say 500-2000 councils and they would not sell them for more (or less)? This would also prevent lemons being sold for 1,000,000 c.

*note* that if you wanted you could stand around in town and sell stomachs for 3,000-4,000 if you wanted.

Should everything be limited? No. But if you sat down and thought about it... you could pretty easily make a list of things that really probably shouldn't be able to be exploited. Here are a few items to consider : metal bars (ahem... shame on you people for trying to sell the simplest version for well past 150c), gems, glowy crystals/vervadium, runestones, etc.


You may not be aware but every game always has some people who have been labeled professional bank sitters (label origin from UO and their magic bank system). In this game you will see people who go around to vendors, buy everything priced fair/cheap and resell them.

The short version is that this creates greed, angst, and overall just takes away progress from low level characters who are forced to pay a premium because they have no other choice.

But such a system only works when there are no price controls. Why? Because Mr. Banker has to sit in town and try to gouge people for his goods. He can't really go out and adventure if his vendor refuses to "steal from the poor".

*before it gets mentioned: I am not in the poor category. I have more bank slots than a number of rich people I know and a hefty amount of cash on hand; I also have no expenses aside from any new undertakings I wish to begin.*

2) Let's look at a few items!

We already have a listing for stomachs. And no before anyone asks I have all the cheese/stomachs I need right now so the current stomach debacle isn't affecting me.

a. What do you think about stomach gouging?
b. what do you feel about runestone gouging?
c. How would you feel if there was a "blanket" check on all items (with a few exceptions for the ilmari outliers) that prevented more than a 20x cost increase of the original item? As an example that would reprice many tier 1 books from 200-4000c in price.


3) Before you weigh in I just want to point out to you that there are some people with 10-100m who basically can buy out any influence most people think they might have in the market.

You'll see things like: someone posts 500 gems at 200 each. And then a banker comes along and buys all those gems - to hold and reprice at 400+ each. Largely speaking no one is going to pay 400 for a gem unless they want 1-3 or something like that. But when priced at 200 each people will gladly buy 30-50 at a time. This is good for the market and helps keep a friendly atmosphere.

[DamageIncorp]

Price controls are not good for the market and actually create dead weight loss.
There are no monopolies in game.
If you invest the time, you can hoard anything you like.
If you don't have the time, you might have to pay a steeper price. Either way, every decision comes with an opportunity cost.
Let's keep the market free!

[Ranperre]

Rule of acquisition #285 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=285) : No good deed goes unpunished.

Who gets to set the price range? It couldn't be tied to value, as many items are worth over 20x their value and it wouldn't be reasonable to have our 2-3 devs manually price items. I'm one of the people that can afford to pay 4-500c per gem. But if they get that expensive, it becomes worth it to me on a cost per hour basis to survey for my own. That's how almost everything is in this game for base materials (e.g. stomachs, gems, slabs). Also, neither you nor anybody else has a right to be able to buy things in the market at a given price. Go put up a work order. This is a transitory problem that will go away when the cap is raised.

[Deldaron]

I agree with Ranperre's points here - it gets messy and complicated if you try and cap the market. However, I have definitely seen instances where I can't find an item on the markets that I'm looking for at a fair price and, while I don't buy to resell, if I see something well priced that I need a lot of and don't foresee grinding for soon I'll often buy out the stock leaving just the the poorly priced alternative and I do not think I'm alone in this regard.

I think one thing to keep in mind that goes often underutilized is the player work order board. I use a TON of nightmare flesh and I don't find much so I'm always tossing up orders and they usually get filled. If you can't find a fair price in the markets you can turn here.

As a counter point to vervadium, stomachs, and runestones (which are expensive because they are in high supply or low demand) let's look at gems. A year ago the standard price for gems was about 300 - I've seen it at a steady 200 and last I checked it sat around 250. You still see people sell them for 400+ but I've rarely seen moments where there were no gems for under 300 even if there wasn't the gem I needed. I actually think this is underpriced and the market keeps it low because players are willing to price what they think is fair.

One thing I think I could get behind is if items purchased in the market could not be sold in the market (either ever or within x hours/days). This would at least prevent buying for the sole purpose of market control, though I admit I have no idea how complicated this would be to implement.

On a final note, I don't actually think the market is broken. If someone is gouging too much people won't buy the items, if people don't buy the items they lose out and then the next time someone posts at a fair price the bank sitters either don't buy it or they adjust their price to a market acceptable price. This gives those that are getting bought out two options, increase their price to match or sit tight and enjoy the benefit of quick sell out. So gems become 400 instead of 200 for most of the market and those that sell for under sell out faster. Keeps it lively. Also - if an item is routinely overpriced at market that's not an abuse it's an opportunity. Gather the items to sell and sell them at a fair price - announce your price in global and convince the market that the bank sitter is gouging them.

[Celler]

Stuff given freely with limited effort involved from an event on player stalls at 30k plus prices to be honest I dislike .

I don't like it when new folks are lead to believe things are worth a certain price, when many would gladly give them those items were they to know they needed them.

All that said, I would not like many controls, apart from perhaps the ability to limit the amount an account can buy from you and the ability to blacklist an account from trading with you at all.

I have not run a shop in a long time, last time I did all the cheap stuff I put up for new folks just went to re sellers.

If folks want to try and make a game within the game of market domination etc. I can live with that but thankfully I'm pretty self sufficient.

[poulter]

I am against price gouging /market manipulation, but I don't think price control by the game is a good idea either.

I would rather see a 'don't sell to' feature (like /ignore) where I (as a player-vendor) could decline to sell items to people I deem to be non-desirables e.g. gougers (or even for RP purposes).

People don't have to buy at inflated prices: they choose to do so, but reputation should matter and gougers might learn from the downside that there are penalties in PG if you consistently display what is judged by many to be 'poor' behaviour.

And yes, I do occasionally price some rare items at exceedingly high values, but more for bragging rights, rather than with an expectation of them selling.

Market impact of gouging
For example - Gem pricing:
I used to buy 200+ /week from players (& did so for years), but now if the price is above 250 /gem, I survey my own.
This results in new players no longer benefiting from 'quick' cash and I spend a few hours /week surveying.

As I can make c. 60k councils /hour, the issue for me is not the price of items, but convenience and my desire to avoid feeling being 'ripped off'.

I believe people buy by choice, not necessity, as they could grind the items and sellers should be free to set whatever price they want, whilst gougers /market manipulators should experience negative reputation impacts.

[Mbaums]

This post was clearly influenced by the recent changes in the stomach market. Stomachs are critical for cheese making and after milk-stacking changes and buffs to cheese, the market responded. For the longest time, it was understood "it's not worth farming stomachs, just sell animal skins and buy stomachs from players". This is the economic result. The price of 2-4k per stomach is the result of the importance of cheese, the ease of cheese making, potions to make cheese last longer, and the scarcity of stomachs.

[Celler]

I have never really bought stomachs, there easy enough to farm if I just want cheese for my own use.

There are a few things within game I would consider needing a few more loot drops, fae felt, lace and the materials needed for fire training, perhaps there are drop spots I'm missing though.

I suppose it's a playstyle thing.
I 'd rather go get what I need and have the variety of that. Rather than maxing income at all times and just buying whats required.

I do feel much like poulter, with a game with such variety, players playing different ways should be encouraged in the main and if folks take it beyond what is reasonable there loss of place or value within the community will suffer more than likely.

[SassySusie]

With the stomach prices, I check all shops daily for stomachs, I will not buy any that are over 2500. In my opinion (only because I am leveling Cheesemaking) they are worth 2500 to me. But then that causes cheese prices to go up also. I can collect them on my own, I choose not to lol, and with all this money that will mean nothing at full release why not use it on leveling more skills up. :)

[Mbaums]

...
Just a recommendation-- Don't buy from shops. Put in work orders for ~1.5k-2k or so, and I'm sure it will be filled within the week.

[Tagamogi]

I would rather see a 'don't sell to' feature (like /ignore) where I (as a player-vendor) could decline to sell items to people I deem to be non-desirables e.g. gougers (or even for RP purposes).


I've been thinking about something similar as a buyer: I'd like to have the option to blacklist some player vendors, so they just don't show up in golem searches for me. I can of course always keep a list myself of who I consider to be a price gouger but it would be handy if the game could do it for me, so I don't waste my time walking over to their shop before remembering that I'm not going to buy from them.

[ProfessorCat]

I always set my prices based off of work order board, and then inflate for convenience cost.

I also fall into the category of an overpriced shop. I am sometimes surprised at how much people are willing to spend, but if I can sell a stack of stomachs for 300k, and someone is willing to spend that much, I will continue to supply my store with them.

I often sell nothing from my shop for days at a time, then come back to a lovely 100k purchase, which then funds my vendor for 2 weeks. If something sells out quickly, then I resupply as quick as I can, and like I said before, I usually raise the price.

An often gripe I see is the availability and cost of fire nibs and explosive runestones. I am under the impression (and I could be wrong) that end game fire magic leveling is supposed to be a challenge, and aren't expected to be gathered by self farming at level 50. Think of the druid or battle chemistry where you need prior levels in other skills to unlock. Perhaps group/guild battle is intended to take place for level 51-70 Fire magic skills. Also note that it only costs favor and gold, same as every other skill, to actually unlock these levels, and you can still deck out a level 70 build with level 50 fire spells. (Funny how retail management has a significant monetary cost, or once again, a secondary skill requirement, meaning its intended for non-early gameplay)

I have never purchased bulk items, and then turned around and sold them in my own store, but I'm inherently not against this either. As a shop owner I've had people do this to me and 2 things can happen.

1. I sell every last one of something I put in stock - for the full price I listed it as. (YAY!)
2. I can still raise my prices next time I stock this item, and they will sell quickly again. (YAY AGAIN!)

Lastly, sometimes items sit, and I can't sell them after a month or more, and i get tired of paying my shop keeper. I'll either close my shop for a few days, or reduce the price. With all the money I make from my shop, it still only makes up about 10% of my income. The outcome of policing cost in the player stalls is that people will just hoard, and nobody gets any cheese at all.

I cannot wait until players start selling max enchanted yellows - I'm willing to pay a PREMIUM price when this happens
I couldn't find enough Shamanic pieces back before it was easy to level - I was willing to pay PREMIUM for these items when they weren't available.

Would you rather have NO stomachs for sale before I replenish them for $1999/ea (Regional ProfessorCat Outfitters currently at stall b-9) or would you rather have the option for someone selling them at $3000/ea? If anyone would pay 3k for stomachs, then that's what people will sell them for. You need to blame the demand, not the suppliers.

PS:
Support your friends in game. When I use the search golem, I don't care nearly as much about price, as I do who's selling it, and I buy from friends I've made, because those are people I dont mind supporting. Leave em a shop note too, those are always fun!

[Golliathe]

I'm not looking to buy or sell anything right now. I can't think of a single thing I need that I can't get.


Price controls are not good for the market and actually create dead weight loss.
There are no monopolies in game.


Price controls help everyone and no controls benefit rich players the most. Funny how I see so many rich or zero expense players saying please let me continue to charge whatever I want for items in my shop.

You could still sell items out of your shop with price controls. The difference is you would have to waste time manually delivering them. And that's the point; an automated seller with unlimited pricing allows for tremendous afk money making potential with minimal input.

This is a problematic idea as it keeps some people locked out of the market and allows others to put a strangehold on it.

There is of course a more simple idea- just reverse tax all goods sold from vendors. You make the tax scale so that anyone who sells over X amount in a month owes a flat fee before they can run a merchant again. Say you sell a 50,000k scroll for a recipe you got from a lvl 20 boss. Maybe that kicks you up to the "you owe 10k and 5% of last month's total income" tax bracket.



I thought I made the point but let me say : not everything needs a control. Some things like recipes would be easy to do a catch all with a 20x base price.

High commodity trade items like bars, gems, etc would be beyond easy to set a fair price based on what is needed to get them.
How many bars are there? How many different gem surveys are there? Add in a few specific price points for runes, crystals, vervadium, lace, fey felt, hippo feathers, etc and then see what happens.


neither you nor anybody else has a right to be able to buy things in the market at a given price. Go put up a work order. This is a transitory problem that will go away when the cap is raised.

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers. This isn't a witch hunt.

I asked a question - what if we made the process softer for everyone. High profit trading would require active attention (read as less automated massive income).


And while you seem so opposed to the idea I noticed that F-25 is empty. Did you move? Did you get bored selling bars? Or did someone push you out?


I hope nobody is thinking what I am thinking but someone could probably ruin the market for everyone (with the words I quoted from you in mind) with the help of about 30 players.

[Wemedge]

Stomach and explosive rune prices have skyrocketed lately, and it seems like it is 100% due to resellers. I would always sell stomachs for 900-1100 based on market and explosive runes between 2500-3000, which had been fairly stable forever. Then I started seeing 10k runes and 4k stomachs. After checking my logs, the same names seemed to always buy me out on those things. And checking their stores showed stacks plus of the items at the goofy rates. Thus normal shoppers never got to even see them for sale at my rate.


So I raised the rates on mine somewhat. Either a reseller will pay me double than what I expect for an item to keep me cleared out, or have to lower their price so their stacks don't gather dust. And as I farm most days, refilling my stocks isn't much of a problem. I've seen others take this tactic as well.


As for doing anything about reselling in general, I don't feel any limits should be put in place. Only suggestion I can think of is maybe have items flagged, so that they can only be listed on a vendor once, like as in it wouldn't even appear on the add to store screen if had been on a vendor before. Or maybe have a sold from vendor tag, so people who use them as storage wouldn't have their items tainted.


At any rate, since items can be infinitely farmed, not many can afford to infinitely buy out others to resell. And definitely not the people I clocked, lol. And as higher prices tend to attract more people to farm/sell themselves, eventually the reselling should take care of itself.

[spider91301]

To be honest I do feel bad for new player but honestly even if I wasnt maxed in cheesemaking and starting from square one I would just boycott shops like these and spend more time grinding I am already doing this Any shop I see selling stomachs for 2-4k I never buy anything from I know it wont hurt them when most of these cu*** sit on million much but hopefully it gives them a good sense of lose every dam time they pay rent I would courage every noobyies to do the same even if there progression slows down dont be cash cows for these fks

Ps: The only exception to my boycott is me buying large prism from people like hardrock but if they spike to 800-1k I will boycott those shops as well

[Ranperre]

And while you seem so opposed to the idea I noticed that F-25 is empty. Did you move? Did you get bored selling bars? Or did someone push you out?

Wemedge undercut me below my replacement cost (base materials + effort) and "stole" the daily market on the popular ilmari slabs. I was still selling enough to get by, but it also coincided with me finishing everything, so I decided to take a month off. I'll bring the shop back in a week or two, still figuring out how much I want to charge while I wait for my shop cost to decrease.



I have never purchased bulk items, and then turned around and sold them in my own store, but I'm inherently not against this either.

I'd have this happen to me when selling sulfur and saltpeter. The buyer made no attempt to hide himself, and I'm pretty sure he lost on the transaction as trying to control that market is just a crapshoot.



Stomach and explosive rune prices have skyrocketed lately

You quit for a good period and that was when the market went haywire (for runes, at least). Not that I'm berating you one bit, but there was a correlation with your drop in supply and an increase in price.

[Jarlaxle]

Ask anyone that has taken a basic course in economics about supply vs demand and equalibrium price. This is just no.....

[Niph]

For instance, in the future shopkeepers might be able to offer frequent-buyer discounts that reward repeat customers. Shopkeepers might also be able to set up raffles contingent on purchase: "Buy any _____ and automatically be entered for a chance to win _________!" The shop system was designed to have little features like this added in pretty easily, and they'll eventually let shopkeepers be really creative.

There will be more features added to the shopkeeper system. There could be some addressing a "need before greed" vision, such as:


Discount to your guildmates, to players that grouped with you, or in you friend list.
Discount for the first items of a given type bought by players (so that occasional buyers always get a lower price).
Higher price for designated players.

(Please refrain from criticizing these ideas, I just want to illustrate the fact that the system will evolve toward customization)

[Loggy]

Heyas,


I think the market if fine and these players with 10-100m have been playing for years and years, they earned it. I survey a ton...no really like 5k a month. I enjoy doign it. I also post my gems on C2 for 200 per. This is not gouging, this is what i know is fair market value. Other may buy me up and sell for 400, by the tim ehis gems sell i have sold 1000 more gems at 20 per. Stomachs i post for 1k , other stuff i post just less than what arket vaue is.

One guy next to my vender had his gems at 160..... I bought all of them and put them up for 200. That is fair. The market will balance out over time and the bigger the population gets. This happen in every game.

In WOW i owned the ore market and paid player 50k for 20 bags of ore and sub contracted out deeds i needed done. The market was fine with it. I bought every single ore out , even if it was higher thn me because i woudl still make money. PG has to few players for the market to be stable. We have seen a jump in player online and i have see prices lower, Nice Plhog was 150-200 2 weeks ago, now I see it low as 90.

We just need to give the game time to grow and the market will follow in stride

[INXS]

The price of nice phlog skyrocketing simultaneously on a few constant vendors of it a few weeks ago the day before the free rolls period is just a sign of the state of the players vendor stalls. In general i can't sell stuff at reasonable prices to help out newish player progress in a game but instead got people buying out everyone and asking stupid prices for items. Before most shops where like Wemedge's prices, healthy market people selling their goods and everyone profiting flourishing from it now it's just a greed frenzy with price controlling.

[Mbaums]

Each item really has different issues. The volatile phlog price was likely not because people were buying and flipping it, but because it was only reasonable to farm ~2,000 a day at most and each piece of gear with poor RNG gobbled up ~800 phlog. The demand shot up real quick because everyone knew they could save months of work. Now the demand is less than what it was, until more demo players reach 70.
Each time there is a long GK group, there is 1000s of phlog entering the game, and a year out from steam there is just not that much demand to reroll new sets of armor. If anyone knows they need phlog, for the love of god--just put up multiple small work orders. You WILL save money.

I believe most people reading this thread have a vendor stall. The vendor stall owning crowd is very different than those who don't open one. My recommendation is to look at the player work order board and see who is buying a lot of what, figure out the player vendor price and under cut their profits to either shift the price down, or screw the rich.

At times I feel in favor of barter-NPCs to dictate prices, but the hands off approach allowing the market and player population do it's thing is probably best. No one has the 'right' to get any skill/item. If the devs start putting their fingers into the economy now, they'll be doing it forever. However.. super-detailed-options, stall reviews ,etc on the player stalls would be an absolute game changer to the economy. It's really tricky to manage the economy with a transient population that hovers around 200 individuals. And let's face it, few people want to farm gems/stomachs, so the prices are high.

One player with 40 million could disrupt the entire economy for any given item. The hardest item to 'wreck' would be aquamarines due to the barter, but it could still happen. The only proper regulation against this would be a player stall revamp, giving the sellers a level of control that is not seen in any other MMO.

[Golliathe]

At times I feel in favor of barter-NPCs to dictate prices, but the hands off approach allowing the market and player population do it's thing is probably best. No one has the 'right' to get any skill/item. If the devs start putting their fingers into the economy now, they'll be doing it forever. However.. super-detailed-options, stall reviews ,etc on the player stalls would be an absolute game changer to the economy. It's really tricky to manage the economy with a transient population that hovers around 200 individuals. And let's face it, few people want to farm gems/stomachs, so the prices are high.


What I would like to see in the player stalls is the ability to see not only where the item is sold but competing prices. Perhaps this could be put in as a function of retail management. (level one lets you see one price, level 3 = two, etc.)

Being able to search for items made shopping much less of a headache. But being able to just run to the shop with the cheapest price would be great for convenience and it would massively help reduce the greed issue. Let me be clear when I say that greed is the issue I'm trying to confront here.

At any given moment if there are 200 people online - about half of them are too poor to run a shop. If that were not true then there would be no free stalls anywhere. The problem with low population is that it allows for any one person to exert a great deal of control on the market.


At the end of the day a system friendly to everyone gets more people involved and creates a better linked environment. When 10 active people own half the game wealth it allows them to ruin the economy for 90% of the players.

Using your gem example loggy... the gem resale thing worked for you and the guy who buys you out. But what about new players who want to buy a few of this gem and a few of that gem for quests? They get screwed. Do you really think it's ok for 3 people to make out well and the rest of the 99% of the population to fit the bill? That's bad math.




Ask anyone that has taken a basic course in economics about supply vs demand and equalibrium price. This is just no.....

Real world economics dont apply to video game systems.

1. No fake currency
2. Infinite amount of money being created
3. There is always more money being created than destroyed.
4. Most games don't have taxes.
5. There is a warped inflation concept in that npc goods/services are static but an item or drop can become common it can become devalued or worthless. As an example you can buy crab from fainor at x price and that will never change. But the prices of apples,phlog, lvl 70 yellow gear may go up or down on the player market.

Fake economies need a different set or rules to keep them flowing smoothly.



Since someone brought it up I don't think it would be a good idea to allow boycotts. Imagine if a guild or 3 decided to boycott Ranperre because he said something they didn't like on the forum (singling you out because I think most people like you - from what I can tell no one speaks ill of you). That could be a game ruining experience for him and no one should have that dictated to them.

I want to return to the point though that most items in the player market section are priced beyond what low level players can pay. Largely speaking there is no player market for them.

And that too is a game ruining experience - which most of you seem to be ok with.


People get frustrated when they need to buy something basic and can't because someone decided to buy up all the apples or whatever and repriced them at 300 each. The result is that those struggling players go play a different game. A one sided player economy assists in that end.

Do you like the game feeling at times like a ghost town? If yes then by all means lets keep the economy one sided.

[s5669111]

Thank you for this thread. I was thinking about starting one like it after reading others whinge about greed.


So, what you want to do is reverse engineer the NPC Sell Items ceiling because that’s the ONLY way you “make” councils.


I’m a very proud gouger. It’s my favourite form of role play. If you don’t like my prices, don’t buy my goods, ever. I’m fine with that. I don’t need your councils.

In the time you (greed whingers) are expending on this thread you could be in-game hunting for your special item. If you don’t think you should have to hunt for it then you need to deal with the market. Submit your bargain basement WO and see who supplies it. Maybe you should strike a up a special bond with them so you can save even more time next time you’re too lazy to hunt it for yourself.

Not all of us gougers are pulling from other stalls, some of us actually go into the field to hunt for your GYC, stomach or ER. I don’t mind running around for DAYS farming your special item but I’m not going to do it for your fair market value.

You want to put a price cap on all items, feel free, but be prepared for the market to dry up.

There are many things that need fixing in-game but the economy isn’t one of them.

And in regards to your new player scenario: Deal with it. Go out and get your own apple, Moonstone or grass. There have been HOURS when I've not been able to find Oak or a Clownfish because others are hunting them also. So, ya, my choice is continue looking or find something else to do IRL. Millions of people make this decision every minute.

[DamageIncorp]

Golliathe, your knowledge of economics is as weak as as your previously displayed knowledge of mathematics.
The laws of supply and demand work exactly as they should in game UNTIL you introduce outside influence like price controls.
Might be time to put PG on the shelf and take some college courses.

[srand]

There are some interesting ideas here! But threads about this topic have a high danger of going negative - and this one has. I think we've gotten a lot of good feedback from this thread already, so I'm going to go ahead and lock it.