Clarification request from Citan and Srand

[zthali]

I am asking for feedback and clarification from Citan and Srand regarding game policy and standards given some events that have occurred ingame recently.

Thursday night 3/28 and into Friday morning my time zone I was milking my cow, Edie, in serb, chatting in guild. I made cheese on the cow, gave milk to a guildee and a friend.

When it was time for bed, I cleaned up my ingame windows, milked myself one last time and logged for the night.

When I logged in on Friday I had a pop up window that stated: Mod Bot Warning, botting is not allowed etc.

I asked for an admin in game to explain what this meant. I received a tell from an admin and he gave me some info and said he would forward the info to you.

I sent an email to the support email and a ticket was created. To date I have received no response.

I later asked another known admin about the situation. I was informed that they were the admin who had performed the “bot check” and I had failed. Given I wasn’t botting and was at my computer while milking I asked what this “bot check” entailed. I was told that I failed a bot check because in a 62 sec timeframe I milked myself, didn’t respond to a tell and logged out of the game. This qualifies as a failed “bot check.”

As a long time player, who followed the old forums when Citan clearly stated his views on botting and made it clear he didn’t approve and designed the game in such a way as to discourage such actions, I am well aware of that. I reviewed the EULA for additional details on the subject.

I have been wrongly accused of botting but don’t know what happens if I continue to milk my cow and an admin decides that me milking my cow is me botting. The admin didn’t stand in front of me, try to get my attention by jumping around etc. I saw no tell.

Are admins allowed to close accounts because they “feel” you are botting without evidence?

Others ingame have mentioned being given warnings and bans. I have also been told that 1 hour buffs are being put on players that are afk. The buff makes it so that they can’t gain xp for an hour.

I’ve been playing for years, have a lot of time invested in the game and these actions seem contrary to the norm.

I am asking Citan and Srand to please inform the player base of policy changes so we know what is going on.

In my case a bot warning has been issued when I wasn’t botting and many ingame can verify it. If these accusations continue without proof what happens?
Are the devs answering customer support email tickets or is that a function of the Admins ingame?

[zthali]

I should have mentioned, if other players are experiencing or seeing these things please chime in so that we know how widespread this is.

Thanks,
z

[Citan]

Well, I was working on an email answer, but I guess I can just post that here. Please consider your email tickets closed.

--

You were flagged as possibly botting. This involves a lot of factors. (None of those factors involved other players.) You then failed a simple "bot check": you ignored private messages from the admins, and when a special popup box appeared on your screen, you logged out. This is behavior we see from common botting programs, so we did the most appropriate thing...

We reminded you that botting is not allowed.

We didn't punish you, because failing a bot test is not "proof" of botting. It's a heuristic, a test. If you fail a bot check, it could just be a random accident. So all we do is tell you not to bot. If you REPEATEDLY fail the bot check, though, we have to assume you're botting.

This isn't some crazy new idea we invented, either. Bot checks are the same for all MMOs. There's no 100% reliable way to detect all botting, so we use human beings to check up on people that seem suspicious.

I know that being forced to prove you exist (by answering an admin) can feel insulting. That's just the way it has to be though. You are obligated to answer an admin when they prompt you. You can't ignore them.

Since you aren't botting, then I'm sure this won't happen again, and there won't be any more problems. Case closed. Thanks.


As to policy changes, there are none here.
Botting is not the same as AFK howling, or AFK anything else. Botting is using hardware (such as macro mice or keyboards) or software (such as overlays, macros apps, etc.) to automate any part of the game. You were accused of BOTTING, not of doing something while AFK.
Bot tests are run periodically every day all the time. They are absolutely NOT "admin abuse", that's proof of admins doing their jobs.
The "headache" debuff you apparently received comes from regular game content, such as when completing a hangout with Yetta, or sometimes when using words of power, drinking from a Cauldron, and more.

[zthali]

Thank you for the response Citan. I did not receive the headache buff, this has been reported by other players.

I also didn't receive a popup window before logging out that night. It is customary for me to say good night to guildees before logging and would have seen a popup window.

I have no problem answering an admin. Given the way the chat windows are set up and the movement of chat, tells can be missed. I would've preferred a more obvious contact method.

As a prior admin who had to track botters. Our policy was to contact the person via tell. Then we made ourselves visually known. We also took screenshots and documented the players activity.

You have game/db records so it is easily verified.

Also an admin stating complain all you want it won't change, is not a very positive attitude from admins in this game. This is just my opinion but I do know that it is shared by other long time players ingame.

[zthali]

Also of note, a 62 sec bot check?

[SassySusie]

Okay maybe this is a good time to post this... maybe its not. But I would like to bring up how a certain Admin thinks its funny to spawn snakes on me, I seriously asked him not to, I told the whole chat that day how terrified I was of them. I know … they are just pixels, well that does not help my fear of them.

This is your game and you can put snakes in it as you please, I just don't have to visit the area that has them in it. But when I am standing in Serb waiting for a druid event to kick off and a snake spawns on me, its just not right. Seriously most of you don't know I am disabled because of my back, Let me tell you the back spasms are very real and hurt like hell, and when I get surprised in game by a snake that puts me in a lot of pain. So instead of waiting for the druid event.. I just logged out.

I guess if you want me to log out that is a good way to do it. Some of the events I would like to have fun and join, but when this certain admin is on I either have to log out or stay clear away from where he is so that his showing off does not put me in pain.

I don't have to name a name because you are obviously the only admin that's been logging in lately, so I will ask you again, please don't spawn snakes on me, its not very funny when I have to log out and be in pain the rest of the night because of it.

[zthali]

Since this has come up in player discussions and you brought it up could we get some clarity?

I am not a puppy so it doesn't affect me.




Botting is not the same as AFK howling, or AFK anything else.

The "headache" debuff you apparently received comes from regular game content, such as when completing a hangout with Yetta, or sometimes when using words of power, drinking from a Cauldron, and more.



What is AFK howling and are these buffs being applied for people doing this. Maybe these new puppies don't know they're not allowed to howl afk. And how does one howl afk?

[zthali]

I should clarity more, the people that have commented about receiving the headache weren't doing the Yetta quest or drinking from the cauldron. They will be posting regarding this situation shortly.

[Niph]

There are certain things you can do while AFK. For example, playing an instrument. If you execute the ability, say, "harp 1", then not touch the keyboard again, your character will continuously play for like 15 minutes before it's automatically disconnected.

This is AKF playing, and the same probably goes for AFK howling if you run the howling ability (I'm not werewolf, not too sure about this).

On the other hand, if you plug a 3rd party program that will repeatedly hit the "harp 1" ability while you're sleeping, that's botting, and it's not allowed.

[moon]

hey im newmoon in game and i regularly set my self to howl or play music at the serb well and go walk my dogs. the game will just boot me because i am afk for too long and thats fine. i do this to build up a music or howl buff witch can take awhile, and others can benefit from it as well but i randomly get a headache debuff when i wasnt on the yetta hangout or taking any of the drugs it only happens if i do this in serb witch is heavily populated. i guessed it was an admin debuff from afk building buffs so i stopped doing it in populated areas and i no longer get the debuff. i understand the Botting thing but it was anoying that it happened 3 times i understand if one was a yetta hangout i dont recall doing but im sure i did but i dont think she has 3.

[mrwarp]

Okay maybe this is a good time to post this... maybe its not. But I would like to bring up how a certain Admin thinks its funny to spawn snakes on me, I seriously asked him not to, I told the whole chat that day how terrified I was of them. I know … they are just pixels, well that does not help my fear of them.

This is your game and you can put snakes in it as you please, I just don't have to visit the area that has them in it. But when I am standing in Serb waiting for a druid event to kick off and a snake spawns on me, its just not right. Seriously most of you don't know I am disabled because of my back, Let me tell you the back spasms are very real and hurt like hell, and when I get surprised in game by a snake that puts me in a lot of pain. So instead of waiting for the druid event.. I just logged out.

I guess if you want me to log out that is a good way to do it. Some of the events I would like to have fun and join, but when this certain admin is on I either have to log out or stay clear away from where he is so that his showing off does not put me in pain.

I don't have to name a name because you are obviously the only admin that's been logging in lately, so I will ask you again, please don't spawn snakes on me, its not very funny when I have to log out and be in pain the rest of the night because of it.


[Full disclosure: As of this posting, Susie and I have already discussed the issue privately, and it has been put to rest. However, I still feel that I must address this here as well.]

A phobia that will go to the point of causing physical pain is never ok. It is never acceptable. Something that I did caused Susie this pain and distress whether it was directly or indirectly, and therefore is also not acceptable. In knowing this, I have sincerely apologized to Susie.

As for the issue in general, yes, there are going to be creatures in this game that are associated with phobias. Yes, there will be events where these creatures may spawn en masse, like spiders or snakes. I try to put subtle cues in the announcements when I can to give fair warning. For example, the spider invasion in Serbule. The announcement clearly states hundreds of spiders, so anyone with arachnophobia is going to know to stay away. I will also do the same for snakes moving forward. The show must go on no matter what, but we will try to make sure that everyone is taken care of and informed in these respects. We take this very seriously. If anyone has a concern of this nature that doesn't pertain to what has already been mentioned, please do not hesitate to reach out.

[INXS]

For me the issue is all these events constantly in Serbule, wtf happen to having them in Hogan's Keep drop a portal in Serb and be off, quite annoying like let's do the easiest most obnoxious way to do things and disrupt people that go to Serb because they got business to take care not have a kraken spawn on the town.

[zthali]

For me the issue is all these events constantly in Serbule, wtf happen to having them in Hogan's Keep drop a portal in Serb and be off, quite annoying like let's do the easiest most obnoxious way to do things and disrupt people that go to Serb because they got business to take care not have a kraken spawn on the town.


That is a complaint I hear a lot also.

I personally wish the town of serb was spread out a bit more. The area from the player table doorway, past the garden up to the corner where Pennocs house is, is nice and open. Past that I feel like I just entered a major city under construction congestion.

Maybe when/if the player table area is made bigger they can drag and stretch the edge of serb out eastward.

Plus I think the Serb npcs have endured we players long enough that they deserve somewhat roomier buildings.

[Loggy]

I good bot check was on p99 where they would ask you to type in a color they mentions on the pop up, the popup stayed a while until you type it in or failed. This was a pretty good system

[Hayashi]

....snip....

You were flagged as possibly botting. This involves a lot of factors. (None of those factors involved other players.) You then failed a simple "bot check": you ignored private messages from the admins, and when a special popup box appeared on your screen, you logged out. This is behavior we see from common botting programs, so we did the most appropriate thing...

We reminded you that botting is not allowed.

....snip....


Something I have noticed that guides should keep in mind during 'bot tests' is:
1. I have 'quit' the game. But to my spouse's computer (who is looking at me in game), I am still there - sometimes for several minutes after I have quit.
2. When your computer crashes, sometimes your character just stays in game until the 15 minutes are up or the session is forced to clean up by logging in again.

In both cases, the 'character' will not respond to .. well, .. anything. As they are essentially ineffectual zombies until the session clears.

Lastly, I am glad there is that popup message. I have multiple custom tabs, and sometimes when I have a bad migraine, I need to cut down on the 'noise', so I may only see one or two chats (such as guild chat). On those days, I can miss messages. By the same token, it is possible to filter out announcements out of the chat windows, so popups are sometimes the best.

Hope this helps in both the bot hunting AND helping filter out those poor sods that were disconnected (because the stupid computer crashed again!!!) and running into trees, or went on a quick afk while howling at the moon, or just being nice and strumming a tune in the garden.

Cheers!
Hayashi/Kyrindia

[Hayashi]

I good bot check was on p99 where they would ask you to type in a color they mentions on the pop up, the popup stayed a while until you type it in or failed. This was a pretty good system

What happens if the player is color blind?

[Loggy]

Being color blind you still can see the different shades of grey...Very few people are 100 % color blind.

We could easily add a system of simple math for the player to type in the answer instead of the color

[zthali]

Something I have noticed that guides should keep in mind during 'bot tests' is:
1. I have 'quit' the game. But to my spouse's computer (who is looking at me in game), I am still there - sometimes for several minutes after I have quit.
2. When your computer crashes, sometimes your character just stays in game until the 15 minutes are up or the session is forced to clean up by logging in again.

In both cases, the 'character' will not respond to .. well, .. anything. As they are essentially ineffectual zombies until the session clears.

Lastly, I am glad there is that popup message. I have multiple custom tabs, and sometimes when I have a bad migraine, I need to cut down on the 'noise', so I may only see one or two chats (such as guild chat). On those days, I can miss messages. By the same token, it is possible to filter out announcements out of the chat windows, so popups are sometimes the best.

Hope this helps in both the bot hunting AND helping filter out those poor sods that were disconnected (because the stupid computer crashed again!!!) and running into trees, or went on a quick afk while howling at the moon, or just being nice and strumming a tune in the garden.

Cheers!
Hayashi/Kyrindia

Excellent points Hayashi. Unfortunately, there is a history of bias against players who people know have more than one account so this was just a flexing of power.

[Hayashi]

Being color blind you still can see the different shades of grey...Very few people are 100 % color blind.

We could easily add a system of simple math for the player to type in the answer instead of the color

Actually true color blindness (greys) is extremely rare. Color deficiency is far more common. And for people with color deficiency, some colors look like others, and sometimes they can see base colors fully colored people see only as the (expected) blend.

For example, with Red-Green color deficiency (the most common):
- colors from orange to pink to red might all look like the same shade of 'red'.
- green and brown look like 'brown'. But not the same shade, necessarily.
- there is a silver car on the market right now that some folks with Red-Green color deficiency see as pink. (probably the undercoat color).
- Blues and purples can be differentiated to an extreme degree.
- camo looks like bright neon colors.

And that's just examples of one type of color blindness. People who suffer from it have a hard time in games with color puzzles, and color codes (including loot drop rarity). Making it a bot check would lose a lot of color deficient people because they would always fail.

Some of the better bot checks are things like:
- show a picture and ask the user to tell you what is in it. (ex. dog)
- fill in the blank sentences.
Those work well for manned bot checks.