Permanent Character Alteration Concern(s)

[Lidocaine]

I've been thinking about what I want to do in PG during this alpha phase, but one thing that I'm really on the fence about is Permanent Character Alternations (PCA's)--namely, for me, druidism. Now, first, I want to say that the general idea of PCA's is great, imo. I get them and their purpose. I actually like the idea that some decisions you make are permanent--like choosing a specialization in a tradecraft. Even though other MMO's almost always offer a way for you to revert your decision (sometimes for a monetary cost, sometimes at the cost of all progression down that path), I don't even necessarily mind that PG doesn't appear to plan on following suit.

However, this is what's bothering me: if this change is, in fact, permanent, it would require me to level another character in a different (opposing) skillset in order to test this other aspect of the game. Basically, what I'm saying is that knowing that, it is discouraging me from playing (and, in effect, testing a certain aspect of the game during this stage of development), which I feel is counter-productive.

Now I am new to PG, so correct me if I'm wrong! Using Druid as an example, there doesn't seem to be anything you're locked-out of by learning druidism. If, in fact, you can learn all PG skills regardless of PCA's like druidism, then I've written all of this for nothing. But if becoming a Druid now locks me out of vampirism (when it's released, for example) it seems like there should be an option to abandon druidism in favor of vampirism...at least during this alpha/testing phase.

Sorry for rambling a bit--I'm at work and had to get this out of my head!

[cr00cy]

Well for now you can learn all skills and non of the, will lock out others. We know that there will be specializations down the line that might lock you out of something, but for now thats all we know.

From what Citan said up to now he dont plan on makign it impossibel to learn one skill, if you picked other. For example werewolves and druids are kinda incompatybile, since they gods are at odds with each other (Deva being goddes of balnce, while Norala represnt chaos). If there would be limitatiuosn as to what you cna learn, it would be mentioned specializations, and time. Basilcy high-end lv of skill woudl requie a lot of time investment to learn/level up. Its starting to get visable, with hwo much lv 70 unlock cost as compared to lv 60 ones.

[Hood]

Hi Lidocaine! This topic has been well-discussed in the past :) It's good to move the discussion here as well, so thank you for posting! Here are the previous threads from the Old Forum that can inform you of others' opinions on the subject, as well as Citan's opinion. As for Druids, in the future you will not be able to use Druid and Lycan combat skills at the same time. That is as much as I can recall.

Chronologically:
Permanent Animal Forms 1 (http://projectgorgon.com/forum/general-gorgon-discussion/611-permanent-spider-cows?limitstart=0)
Permanent Animal Forms 2 (http://projectgorgon.com/forum/general-gorgon-discussion/1406-plans-for-permanent-animal-curse-forms?limitstart=0)
Permanent Animal Forms 3 (http://projectgorgon.com/forum/general-gorgon-discussion/1475-druid-animal-forms)
Permanent Animal Forms 4 (http://www.projectgorgon.com/forum/support/3135-thoughts-on-permanent-animal-form#16251)

The topic has many different starting points but the threads eventually become about the effects of permanency. What do you think?

[Spiritfingers]

This is definitely a game that is made around decision making. Choices have consequences in this game. I'm hoping that every new player reads Auth's compatibility skills
chart before getting too far into the game. Otherwise you are stuck with your choices. We've all made those mistakes. Heck the first toon I ever made got turned into a Cow (back in 2014). I saw the flashing signs all over the screen and still went into the room.

Citan isn't going to allow you give up being a Druid when Vampire comes out. Skills are not (at this point) getting wiped when the game launches. It doesn't make any sense why he'd allow you to just drop a permanent choice decision for another permanent choice decision because it's alpha.

[Greyfyn]

Ah, the druid decision! Most players enjoy being druids. The flight advantage is real. The group events provide druid cohesion. There is very little reason to not be a druid.

There are very few non-druids in game. I am stubbornly a non-druid. For myself, it's been a choice akin to the choice some players make to play hardcore. As I've watched the majority of my friends fly off into the clouds, I have chosen a different path. It's muddy. It's cold. It's got mobs in the way. And it challenges me.

Someday I may make an alt that is a druid. But living for something that's months or years away.... We don't know what's going to happen with Project: Gorgon; playing is more important than overthinking things. Make the decision now. Enjoy the game the way you want to.

[Spiritfingers]

Ah, the druid decision! Most players enjoy being druids. The flight advantage is real. The group events provide druid cohesion. There is very little reason to not be a druid.

There are very few non-druids in game. I am stubbornly a non-druid. For myself, it's been a choice akin to the choice some players make to play hardcore. As I've watched the majority of my friends fly off into the clouds, I have chosen a different path. It's muddy. It's cold. It's got mobs in the way. And it challenges me.

Someday I may make an alt that is a druid. But living for something that's months or years away.... We don't know what's going to happen with Project: Gorgon; playing is more important than overthinking things. Make the decision now. Enjoy the game the way you want to.

I think Flight is the only reason people chose being a Druid awhile back. New players might chose Druid now because of flight and Druid events. I don't know of anyone uses Druid in their max combat builds. The beauty of the Druid decision is..as you have said...you can make alts for opposing builds. People who only ever like to play one toon in a mmo are going to have problems with PG.

[Tsugumori]

Ah, the druid decision! Most players enjoy being druids. The flight advantage is real. The group events provide druid cohesion. There is very little reason to not be a druid.

There are very few non-druids in game.

(Just quoting Greyfyn for the relevance to what I wanted to say...)

As far as being a druid, some new players tend to rush for this..

[not knowing where to get it]
[not knowing where Sunvale is]
[not knowing where in Sunvale it is]
[not knowing how to get there without being mauled 58 and a half ways to Sunday]

.. not to mention ignoring or simply not heeding the weight of the word 'permanent'.

Others may think "this is a throw away char anyway, I can always redo". This is a fine outlook/point of view. I myself on my 'main' have opted to learn every skill available, while sticking to a handful on alts. Being a wolf/druid, (which SOME people simply decided it was impossible to be without trying), is completely possible. Our in-house lore keepers have tantrums about this due to the fact that the deities presiding over these skills are enemies, but I digress.

To get to the point though, I feel perhaps this skill should be harder to obtain. I think more of an emphasis will be placed on the whole 'permanent choice' and 'irreversible' nature of this skill at some point in the future.


For the time being, going druid isn't the worst decision a new player can make, it's not even bad at all, really.

- It lets you try out being a deer for one, which is nice, without the annoyance of having to dispel it.
- With burst attacks, AoE attacks, heals, buffs and being able to combine this skill with certain animal forms, its certainly one of the most diverse skills currently in the game. The drawbacks or 'debuff' during events can be frustrating if you're in the middle of something else, but beyond that, its pretty cut and dry.
- As for flying... I feel this is beyond the horizon in terms of just starting out, so I wouldn't put it down as a lure. That being said, it does present the option of flying without the need of a Word of Power or Bat form.

As Grey said, there is very little reason to not be a druid. Referencing the whole 'locked out' scenario, I can't say for certain if there will be skill clashes in the future, (I certainly hope there is at some point), but for now it is what it is. You can play selfishly skill wise and use whatever is in the game at the moment. However, if our ultimate goal is to test the environments and what has been laid before us then you should take every opportunity and have a go of everything because why not!

[Lidocaine]

The topic has many different starting points but the threads eventually become about the effects of permanency. What do you think?

Although this has to do with animal forms and curses, specifically, what Citan mentions in this quote (below) makes perfect sense to me, and an example, in my opinion, of a perfect way to implement a "permanent" change:


The old thread was discussing the idea of having to lock into your animal form permanently in order to raise the skill past level 50. I've thrown that idea out as being impractical, but I still want to dis-incentivize people from switching constantly.

So the new plan is pretty simple: when you cure the curse, you'll also lose any level-cap-increases you've bought for the skill.


Say you're a cow who has bought the level 51-60 skill-cap-increase, and you're level 57 in the Cow skill. Then you decide to abandon Cow form. If you later become a Cow again, your skill cap will be 50, not 60. You will have to re-buy the level-cap-increase from the trainer.


However, you don't permanently lose XP. In the above example, once you bought the level-cap increase, you'd instantly go from level 50 to level 57 again.

-----


This is definitely a game that is made around decision making. Choices have consequences in this game. I'm hoping that every new player reads Auth's compatibility skills chart before getting too far into the game. Otherwise you are stuck with your choices. We've all made those mistakes. Heck the first toon I ever made got turned into a Cow (back in 2014). I saw the flashing signs all over the screen and still went into the room.


Citan isn't going to allow you give up being a Druid when Vampire comes out. Skills are not (at this point) getting wiped when the game launches. It doesn't make any sense why he'd allow you to just drop a permanent choice decision for another permanent choice decision because it's alpha.

I think you might be misunderstanding where I'm coming from. Choices should have consequences, etc. etc. However, the compatibility skills chart doesn't address my concern. I'm all for permanent character alterations, however (and I don't know if this is the case or not) there should be some sort of interim period before you make a choice permanent that would specifically limit your skills/abilities on a character. You can "preview" an animal form without making it permanent... but is the same available for druidism? Or Lycanthropy? (I'm really asking.) Your example of your first char being turned into a Cow isn't permanent though--is there not a potion, quest, or something to reverse the effect?

In terms of Druid vs Vampire, if it works like other skills, that's not an issue--e.g. how you can't use lycanthope skills and druid skills simultaneously.

-----

I am not even sure I want to be a druid. As I said, I just started playing recently and am technically on my 3rd or 4th character. However, given that there are purportedly not going to be no character wipes, I'm more inclined to play like it's a feature-complete beta preparing for launch as opposed to doing things just for the sake of doing them, testing them, and seeing how it turns out. But, as this is an alpha, I felt it necessary to at least bring up the issue of decision permanence as a whole on these new forums.

Sidenote: I really don't wanna start debating the differences between the parameters of different development phases, but found it necessary to at least bring it up.

Also...! I don't really want the flight/deer forms of druid, tbh. From browsing their skills on the wiki, it sounds like it'd be very fun to play... with the damage shields and buffs and whatnot. But hey, I haven't even unlocked Mentalism yet, so I really have no idea what I wanna do with my PG life yet. lmao

[Oxlazr]

I was never really a fan of the whole "pay twice" to unlock skillsets thing for animals, especially, as at the time, animals were limited in who they could sell their items to. I'm still hoping animal players can eventually remove themselves from the gold-based economy for a different style of play, but that might be impractical as well.

At anyrate, one of my favourite ideas discussed for choice & consequences is to have some sort of slider - Nature <---> Civilisation, for example. If you're maxed out on nature, you can use druid skills and such, but won't have access to the perks Civilisation might offer. By performing certain activities, you can push those bars very slowly in either direction - so if you eventually wanted to drop druid, you'd have to work towards civilisation to do so.

I was always rather gutted about Lycanthropy. There was never any trial period, and I picked it up blindly on my main because wolves. Even a couple weeks in, I regretted it, it wasn't until 6-12 months later, somewhere there abouts, that I eventually just rerolled, forsaking a tremendous amount of progress I'd made on my main.

But compared to the "permanent" animal forms? Dishing back and forward to the cow cave, buying some juices, they hardly feel like weighted consequences at all. The only restriction is animal town - and that's tedious and not particularly immersive, in my opinion (to wait "6" hours to talk to some NPCs - it just feels like an arbitrary punishment) - you're not actively working around what the curse is meant to represent. A lot of the game forces home that you're really not meant to stay as an animal a lot of the time (i.e. the endurance trainer won't talk to you unless you're in human form). Right now, at least, I think animal forms have a lot more potential than they're currently utilising.

[Khariel]

With both Lycanthropy and Druid, you are warned that it is a permanent, irrevocable decision to take the skill. It cannot possibly be made any clearer (especially with Druid, there were like, 4 prompts before it let me take it.) So unless you're one of those "Blah blah yea go kill stuff" type of questers, and don't bother to read everything, you saw the warnings. You have no one to blame but yourself for taking on a permanent choice.

[Lidocaine]

With both Lycanthropy and Druid, you are warned that it is a permanent, irrevocable decision to take the skill. It cannot possibly be made any clearer (especially with Druid, there were like, 4 prompts before it let me take it.) So unless you're one of those "Blah blah yea go kill stuff" type of questers, and don't bother to read everything, you saw the warnings. You have no one to blame but yourself for taking on a permanent choice.

That isn't at all what I'm talking about. No one is complaining about there being permanent, irrevocable decisions. No one is complaining about there not being enough warnings regarding the nature of a permanent, irrevocable decision, in and of itself.

From what I gather so far, there doesn't seem to be any skills that explicitly prevent a character from acquiring another skill. Skills may be incompatible for simultaneous use or unavailable in animal form, but there is nothing preventing someone from learning both Lycanthropy and Druid. You just can't use werewolf skills and druid skills at the same time. If that's how all skills are intended to work, I'm okay with that. If it's not, if having access to the Druid skills wholly prevents your character from acquiring Lycanthropy or Vampirism, then I think is an ill-thought-out decision, from a UX standpoint as long as the player is unable to make an informed decision. Especially if the game encourages a "do anything on one character" idea over an alt-centric, "one character, one role" idea.

[cratoh]

I paid a max level toon to powerlevel me to 50 druid at the very start of my PG gaming, just for flight. I don't mind that I can't gain exp during druid events, I either log out, or do something that doesn't give exp.

[Spiritfingers]

I was always rather gutted about Lycanthropy. There was never any trial period, and I picked it up blindly on my main because wolves. Even a couple weeks in, I regretted it, it wasn't until 6-12 months later, somewhere there abouts, that I eventually just rerolled, forsaking a tremendous amount of progress I'd made on my main.


I can't believe you waited so long. I rerolled within 2 weeks of becoming a cow.

[Spiritfingers]

That isn't at all what I'm talking about. No one is complaining about there being permanent, irrevocable decisions. No one is complaining about there not being enough warnings regarding the nature of a permanent, irrevocable decision, in and of itself.

From what I gather so far, there doesn't seem to be any skills that explicitly prevent a character from acquiring another skill. Skills may be incompatible for simultaneous use or unavailable in animal form, but there is nothing preventing someone from learning both Lycanthropy and Druid. You just can't use werewolf skills and druid skills at the same time. If that's how all skills are intended to work, I'm okay with that. If it's not, if having access to the Druid skills wholly prevents your character from acquiring Lycanthropy or Vampirism, then I think is an ill-thought-out decision, from a UX standpoint as long as the player is unable to make an informed decision. Especially if the game encourages a "do anything on one character" idea over an alt-centric, "one character, one role" idea.

I think I finally get what you are saying. You want to know if becoming a Druid means that you cannot become a Vampire later on. You get that some skills are compatible - you just want the chance to get the skills you want. I haven't tried to unlock all the skills in the game - I have quite a few though. I've never had Druid prevent me from even unlocking other skills. I'm hoping someone who has unlocked more than me can chime in though.

[Lidocaine]

I think I finally get what you are saying. You want to know if becoming a Druid means that you cannot become a Vampire later on. You get that some skills are compatible - you just want the chance to get the skills you want. I haven't tried to unlock all the skills in the game - I have quite a few though. I've never had Druid prevent me from even unlocking other skills. I'm hoping someone who has unlocked more than me can chime in though.

Yes! That's essentially what I'm concerned about. I have absolutely no qualms about a permanent decision having lasting pros and cons that affect my overall gameplay. I am concerned that, basically, if I pick Druid, does that mean I'm permanently barred of learning Vampirism down the line. As of now, these are really the only 2 skillsets that I can see butting heads--I don't really want to be a vampire or a werewolf or even a druid, necessarily. But I've no way of gaining more information about any of those three to decide if it's worth making the decision permanent. I'd like some form of glimpse into the skillset before having to affect my character permanently.

I'd argue instead that there be some involved quest or something to revert the permanent decision, but I really don't want to undermine the nature of permanent character alterations in this game. I just want to make the choice an informed one without having to research the wiki, forums, and various gameplay videos on YouTube.

[Spiritfingers]

Yes! That's essentially what I'm concerned about. I have absolutely no qualms about a permanent decision having lasting pros and cons that affect my overall gameplay. I am concerned that, basically, if I pick Druid, does that mean I'm permanently barred of learning Vampirism down the line. As of now, these are really the only 2 skillsets that I can see butting heads--I don't really want to be a vampire or a werewolf or even a druid, necessarily. But I've no way of gaining more information about any of those three to decide if it's worth making the decision permanent. I'd like some form of glimpse into the skillset before having to affect my character permanently.

I'd argue instead that there be some involved quest or something to revert the permanent decision, but I really don't want to undermine the nature of permanent character alterations in this game. I just want to make the choice an informed one without having to research the wiki, forums, and various gameplay videos on YouTube.

I get where you are coming from completely now. I just learned the the gods both the Druid and Vampire are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Since I have no working knowledge of how Vampires will be implmented, this is something Citan will have to answer. So far in my experience playing this game, nothing Citan has added has destroyed what was already there. He has made things work together.

[Crissa]

Choices-have-consequences always runs into time-sunk and lack-of-psionics in players' abilities to make informed choices.

[alleryn]

I totally identify with this concern, but it's not really realistic to have all the permanent possibilites laid out when many of them haven't been implemented yet. (For example you've already made the (presumably permanent) decision of your character's race, but half the races aren't even in the game yet).

My best advice to you is not to make any permanent choices you don't have to, if you feel you may regret it down the line.

[Lidocaine]

I totally identify with this concern, but it's not really realistic to have all the permanent possibilites laid out when many of them haven't been implemented yet.

Exactly! That being said, it feels like, at least during testing, we should be able to revert a permanent decision until the point in the game's development where that decision is an informed one. Something beyond 1-3 "are you sure, you can't undo this!" confirmation windows.


For example you've already made the (presumably permanent) decision of your character's race, but half the races aren't even in the game yet.

This is true, but this is one of those things that is pretty standard. But, more importantly, there's no inclination that choosing a specific race would prevent that character from learning one or more skills in the future. Moreover, you have absolutely nothing invested in your character upon his/her initial creation.

It would be nice to give all alpha players some type of character re-customization token upon beta/launch, but that's a topic for another day. lol

[Silvonis]

We need to gather data from players who make permanent skill choices and that data would be skewed if players could revert their permanent choices during alpha/beta but not at release. We don't have any plans to change that policy and we don't plan on offering a way to revert those choices at launch.

[Tsugumori]

[This is just ranting I think - take this preview message as a disclaimer!!]

- - -


It would be nice to give all alpha players some type of character re-customization token upon beta/launch, but that's a topic for another day. lol

This kinda defeats the purpose though. I'd get giving out tokens for say 'one-time race changes' perhaps, seeing as some players may want to change their race at some point when the new ones come out, (not to mention if racial skills get implemented there might be some neat ones), but for the permanent skill choices? I don't think so. Of course some people may want to plan ahead, but I mean.. It's a game. Sure there's planning ahead for stuff like gear, quests etc.. But when that same way of thinking is applied to character building in an -open ended- game? Apples and oranges.

I don't think having the option to renounce druid or wolf makes sense. Some people do not like either and that's fair enough, they are open to choose whatever may come down the pipeline as they haven't opted for anything so they have a clean slate, so to speak. That's the point though really, what if some people didn't choose either because they were afraid it would affect their character in the future? Not to be the carefree rain cloud on parade day but seriously nobody needs that shit, even just typing it and reading it back is stressful enough, never mind going through that thought process.

- Choose Both
- Choose One
- Choose Neither

A, B, or C, simple as. Asking the question "But what if I choose one and it negatively affects me in the future?" - Cross that bridge when you come to it. I feel like this was taking 2+2 and making it = x.

As just sidebar stuff..


Lyco and druid aren't that punishing. Sure pro for pro and con for con = Lyco > Druid, wolf beats nature hands down in a contest of player jimmy rustling but even so it's not that bad. " [etc] [etc] [etc] [etc] -something about wolves not being able to play for 3 days of the month or some such even though they can [etc] [etc] [etc] [etc]."

To quote JonTron: " See it's all about perspective this whole 'life' thing. "Awh, I got stabbed with a sword.. but that guy got stabbed with two swords! Man, my life's not so bad." "

Some people view druid as one sword, and wolf as two, (If not three). This topic gets a bit repetitive since these two skills are the only ones currently under the banner of 'character influencing permanence' and we really do need more of them to make it a proper topic.

[Lidocaine]

This kinda defeats the purpose though. I'd get giving out tokens for say 'one-time race changes' perhaps, seeing as some players may want to change their race at some point when the new ones come out, (not to mention if racial skills get implemented there might be some neat ones), but for the permanent skill choices? I don't think so. Of course some people may want to plan ahead, but I mean.. It's a game. Sure there's planning ahead for stuff like gear, quests etc.. But when that same way of thinking is applied to character building in an -open ended- game? Apples and oranges.

Right, this was my fault for kinda derailing my own thread. The mention about getting a character re-customization token only applied to race/cosmetic choices made upon creation and had nothing to do with skills or other permanent choices made throughout the game. I only brought it up in reference to what the previous person said; it is unrelated to what I'm talking about regarding permanent alterations like druid or lycanthropy.


I don't think having the option to renounce druid or wolf makes sense. Some people do not like either and that's fair enough, they are open to choose whatever may come down the pipeline as they haven't opted for anything so they have a clean slate, so to speak. That's the point though really...

I agree. I apologize if I got off track by addressing other things people have stated, but I'm not trying to undermine the system--I'm trying to make these permanent decisions informed decisions.


...what if some people didn't choose either because they were afraid it would affect their character in the future? Not to be the carefree rain cloud on parade day but seriously nobody needs that shit, even just typing it and reading it back is stressful enough, never mind going through that thought process.

In a game that's still in alpha but purportedly won't be wiping characters upon beta or launch, one can't help to ponder the consequences of a permanent decision when half of [the game's] features aren't implemented yet. Okay, if I can create a new character, rush the starter island, hightail it to Sun Vale, and snag druid (or lycan or whatever) with minimal investment to see if I'm ever actually interested in playing a druid, then I'd actually be okay with that. But from what I hear, it's not exactly something you can run off with a sub-level 10 (in anything) character and go grab. Am I mistaken?

Lastly, I feel this only really matters if one of these skillsets prevents you from learning another skillset altogether. It seems like we don't know if they will or won't at this point, but none currently do.

[Tsugumori]

Okay, if I can create a new character, rush the starter island, hightail it to Sun Vale, and snag druid (or lycan or whatever) with minimal investment to see if I'm ever actually interested in playing a druid, then I'd actually be okay with that. But from what I hear, it's not exactly something you can run off with a sub-level 10 (in anything) character and go grab. Am I mistaken?

Well I've been on forums where 'headbutting' and 'challenging' were commonplace but the PG community is above that I believe. Saying that, not trying to place it on a pedestal since I know its not perfect but regardless.. Not trying to have a go or attack or anything, just giving my take, tossing in my two cents.

I completely get what you're saying, I just quoted you as I had points to make etc etc.

Occasionally newbies ask where to get druid and may require help getting it. I've helped a few people get it, warning them profusely about its permanence while making the trek there, just to give them the option of changing their minds en route. You could bring a lvl 1 to sunvale to get druid, some view it as enabling or babying but I view it as 'if someone wants something and I can help them get it, why not.' You can't control what other people want or do, you can only decide for yourself. If you wanted druid on an alt to try it out either myself or someone else would be more than happy to bring you there, as with anyone else that wants to try it.

You are right however, sunvale is a lvl 40-ish zone (roughly), so new players couldn't exactly fight anything there. If they have never been there before they may find it tough to navigate the mobs as well. So no, you're not mistaken - new players would find it difficult to attain on their own.

[Lidocaine]

Well I've been on forums where 'headbutting' and 'challenging' were commonplace but the PG community is above that I believe. Saying that, not trying to place it on a pedestal since I know its not perfect but regardless.. Not trying to have a go or attack or anything, just giving my take, tossing in my two cents.

I completely get what you're saying, I just quoted you as I had points to make etc etc.

I feel you; I have to agree, the community here is pretty great. I haven't felt attacked or anything, just misunderstood--in part, at least, because I also try to address multiple points in my responses even if they aren't 100% relevant. lol


Occasionally newbies ask where to get druid and may require help getting it. I've helped a few people get it, warning them profusely about its permanence while making the trek there, just to give them the option of changing their minds en route. You could bring a lvl 1 to sunvale to get druid...sunvale is a lvl 40-ish zone (roughly), so new players couldn't exactly fight anything there. If they have never been there before they may find it tough to navigate the mobs as well. So no, you're not mistaken - new players would find it difficult to attain on their own.

And that's the core reason as to why I wanted to bring it up for discussion as a gameplay element or design decision. One could assume that druid isn't meant to be attained until you've leveled a previous skill into the 30's or 40's, due to the difficulty of Sunvale. Without a precursor skill or something beyond textboxes to gauge interest in druid, how can one feel good about making the decision to permanently alter his or her character? That is my concern. Not just for myself, but for anyone.

An example solution would be: being able to train Druid up to, but not beyond, a specific level before being blocked from advancement until pledging yourself to the god/goddess and making the decision permanent. Like a sneak peek so you can be like "well I'm glad I didn't go down that road" or "yeah this is exactly what I've been looking for in a skillset!"

Sidebar: Afterall, I really don't think you should be able to undo a permanent change unless the devs made a fundamental alteration to how the skillset worked or something like that--a situation where devs would issue a respec in other games, basically.

[Khariel]

Right, this was my fault for kinda derailing my own thread. The mention about getting a character re-customization token only applied to race/cosmetic choices made upon creation and had nothing to do with skills or other permanent choices made throughout the game. I only brought it up in reference to what the previous person said; it is unrelated to what I'm talking about regarding permanent alterations like druid or lycanthropy.



I agree. I apologize if I got off track by addressing other things people have stated, but I'm not trying to undermine the system--I'm trying to make these permanent decisions informed decisions.



In a game that's still in alpha but purportedly won't be wiping characters upon beta or launch, one can't help to ponder the consequences of a permanent decision when half of [the game's] features aren't implemented yet. Okay, if I can create a new character, rush the starter island, hightail it to Sun Vale, and snag druid (or lycan or whatever) with minimal investment to see if I'm ever actually interested in playing a druid, then I'd actually be okay with that. But from what I hear, it's not exactly something you can run off with a sub-level 10 (in anything) character and go grab. Am I mistaken?

Lastly, I feel this only really matters if one of these skillsets prevents you from learning another skillset altogether. It seems like we don't know if they will or won't at this point, but none currently do.

If you have the councils to get to Sunvale, you can absolutely run and get Druid without leveling much as soon as you get off the Starter island. You have to plan your route, or get an escort, but you can.

Just because it is possible however, doesn't mean it's easy. I did it. It took some doing, but I managed to get over there mostly alone. There were a few people killing things in the zone, so I did take advantage of the hole they made in the spawns, but I could have gone around.


But yes, I agree that we need to know if obtaining a certain skill will lock you out of another.

[Elenoe]

But yes, I agree that we need to know if obtaining a certain skill will lock you out of another.
Curious.. are there even some disadvantages to druids? I mean I see red labels about how "permanent" it is but that's completely useless warning. Gaining +1 Strength in most games is "permanent" too.

The only reason warning actually means something is when they tell you what they "permanently" lock you out from. Things you will need to deal with if you make that choice. Doesn't need to be "full disclosure". You don't get that in RL as well and you need to make decisions and then live with it. But are there at least something that makes "being druid" more permanent then getting Basic Shot 2, which is permanent too but no warnings about it?

(I understand lycantrophy better. It says it locks you in the wolf form for three days and you get vulnerability/inability to use silver things. That's the proper "permanent" things you need to agree with when you go through warnings. But I can't even find anything about druids that would make warning signs any relevant. Sounds more like generic warning: "You should be careful when you go to work today". "Why? What happens?", you may ask. "Just be careful that's all." Just so when you get hit by car you could hear "but I told you you should be careful, you were warned, twice")

[Lidocaine]

The only reason warning actually means something is when they tell you what they "permanently" lock you out from. Things you will need to deal with if you make that choice. Doesn't need to be "full disclosure". You don't get that in RL as well and you need to make decisions and then live with it. But are there at least something that makes "being druid" more permanent then getting Basic Shot 2, which is permanent too but no warnings about it?

Exactly! I was thinking on it last night, and you hit the nail on the head.

[Tsugumori]

Curious.. are there even some disadvantages to druids? I mean I see red labels about how "permanent" it is but that's completely useless warning. Gaining +1 Strength in most games is "permanent" too.

The only reason warning actually means something is when they tell you what they "permanently" lock you out from.

Well in this game 'strength' is subjective. Some people don't see druid as worth getting or they just straight up don't like it - it's their prerogative.

New players, (some of them anyway), heed the warnings entering boss rooms, the red flashes, the text appearing. They don't ignore that. (For the most part...)

The warnings for lycanthropy and druid, (and whatever permanent skills are yet to be revealed), I don't think they should ever include what they clash with. I think the player should have to do the research. Through the world, reading books, talking to relevant NPCs. Gather the information yourself.

That said... I think Permanent choices should have a 'switch-in & out' feature. Let's talk hypotheticals:

"I'm a wolf, I want to be a wolfvampire! Oh no... These clash? That sucks."

In this scenario I believe with perhaps 'relevant sacrifices' you could maybe exchange one permanence for another. Consider taking on one of the permanent skills as taking on a particularly difficult job. You can't change the dynamic of the job - but you can choose how to approach it.

"So okay, I'm a vampire now. But I lost wolf rights. Okie"

You want back into wolf? Go get them sacrifices ready.

[Khariel]

With the switching between clashing permanent choices thing... I think there should be a cost beyond the material for doing it. I think you should give up everything associated with the skill when you drop it. That means (for example) if you give up being a wolf, you lose all howling, beast metabolism, and lycanthropy xp gained. The reason for this is that, when you're a wolf, it's not just that you are a wolf. You deal with the werewolf goddess. I imagine she would not be happy to see you giving up her gift. So to get back in her favor, you have to start over from scratch (or claw in this case... We're not pokemon!)

This would enable people who regret the decision to have a way out of it... but it would also ensure that you didn't go "Ooo, Vampire sounds cool! *switches without thinking it through* Awww, this isn't as fun as I thought... *switches back*" It should be a hard choice to make... Do I give up everything I've fought so hard for to try out this other thing... or do I stick with what I know, and maybe make a new character to try this other thing later.

[Tsugumori]

With the switching between clashing permanent choices thing... I think there should be a cost beyond the material for doing it. I think you should give up everything associated with the skill when you drop it. That means (for example) if you give up being a wolf, you lose all howling, beast metabolism, and lycanthropy xp gained. The reason for this is that, when you're a wolf, it's not just that you are a wolf. You deal with the werewolf goddess. I imagine she would not be happy to see you giving up her gift. So to get back in her favor, you have to start over from scratch (or claw in this case... We're not pokemon!)

This would enable people who regret the decision to have a way out of it... but it would also ensure that you didn't go "Ooo, Vampire sounds cool! *switches without thinking it through* Awww, this isn't as fun as I thought... *switches back*" It should be a hard choice to make... Do I give up everything I've fought so hard for to try out this other thing... or do I stick with what I know, and maybe make a new character to try this other thing later.

I agree and disagree. I do think it should be a hurdle, both practically and lore wise, which is why I suggested sacrifices. XP (i.e Experience) isn't something you lose, it's a combination of things you have witnessed and overcome. So I don't think you can just 'lose it' all. That said, I do think that Norala would have some monumental demands of her puppers that went astray. Knowing how the Altar quests go I'd imagine it'd be kill quests to prove your worth before being granted walf status again.

So quests/rare item sacrifice gets > simply losing all XP. (Even if the 'XP removal' were a thing to be considered, I think it should be a flat amount or % of current XP as opposed to it all. So maybe a 10 level hit initially? (- this number grows the more you switch?)

[Umber]

With the switching between clashing permanent choices thing... I think there should be a cost beyond the material for doing it. I think you should give up everything associated with the skill when you drop it. That means (for example) if you give up being a wolf, you lose all howling, beast metabolism, and lycanthropy xp gained. The reason for this is that, when you're a wolf, it's not just that you are a wolf. You deal with the werewolf goddess. I imagine she would not be happy to see you giving up her gift. So to get back in her favor, you have to start over from scratch (or claw in this case... We're not pokemon!)

This would enable people who regret the decision to have a way out of it... but it would also ensure that you didn't go "Ooo, Vampire sounds cool! *switches without thinking it through* Awww, this isn't as fun as I thought... *switches back*" It should be a hard choice to make... Do I give up everything I've fought so hard for to try out this other thing... or do I stick with what I know, and maybe make a new character to try this other thing later.

I think this makes sense. There should be an actual cost to changing forms, but I wouldn't want it to be all xp lost; just want it to be a significant opportunity cost to do so. If the player lost say 25% or 50% of their skills, it would be a decision they have to ponder, but they don't lose everything if they switched back.

It would be an interesting twist if you could do check gates for if they join an opposing view. So it's -25 for leaving and another -25% if you join the opposing faction.

[alleryn]

The reason for this is that, when you're a wolf, it's not just that you are a wolf. You deal with the werewolf goddess. I imagine she would not be happy to see you giving up her gift. So to get back in her favor, you have to start over from scratch (or claw in this case... We're not pokemon!)

This makes me think of Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup where if you eschew worship of one god for another, the god you left will often smite you with (un)holy vengeance periodically for a time.

[Yaksnot]

I've been thinking about what I want to do in PG during this alpha phase, but one thing that I'm really on the fence about is Permanent Character Alternations (PCA's)--namely, for me, druidism. Now, first, I want to say that the general idea of PCA's is great, imo. I get them and their purpose. I actually like the idea that some decisions you make are permanent--like choosing a specialization in a tradecraft. Even though other MMO's almost always offer a way for you to revert your decision (sometimes for a monetary cost, sometimes at the cost of all progression down that path), I don't even necessarily mind that PG doesn't appear to plan on following suit.

However, this is what's bothering me: if this change is, in fact, permanent, it would require me to level another character in a different (opposing) skillset in order to test this other aspect of the game. Basically, what I'm saying is that knowing that, it is discouraging me from playing (and, in effect, testing a certain aspect of the game during this stage of development), which I feel is counter-productive.

Now I am new to PG, so correct me if I'm wrong! Using Druid as an example, there doesn't seem to be anything you're locked-out of by learning druidism. If, in fact, you can learn all PG skills regardless of PCA's like druidism, then I've written all of this for nothing. But if becoming a Druid now locks me out of vampirism (when it's released, for example) it seems like there should be an option to abandon druidism in favor of vampirism...at least during this alpha/testing phase.

Sorry for rambling a bit--I'm at work and had to get this out of my head!

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS ...I could go on. Dear Devs its ALPHA i know many people that want to help test what ever they can but have ZERO incentive to try permanent change classes. Druid is great cause of all the benefits I am really thinking of Lycan right now. Why should i try to help test that on my main character? answer you shouldnt. I do not understand the logic of making permanent choices in what is essential play testing. anyone??

[Tchey]

I like the idea of removing you penma-choice... with a cost :

- You have to gain the same amount of XP you have when you decide to de-perma your skill. Click on a button, or do a quest, then do whatever you want, but you need to gain an overall equal to the total amount of XP you need to remve from your perma-skill.

- Or more immediate, "forget the skill", and lose ALL the progress. So if i'm level 54 in Druid and i don't want to be Druid again, i can with a button. Then if i want to be Druid again, i still can, but i have to start from nothing, like the very first time.

However i think i remember Citan said several times "no, no, no, perma is permanently permanent, deal with it".

[Caustic]

hmmm controversial but I wonder if wiping combat skills would be such a bad idea. Reset druid/wolf to allow for mistakes to be redeemed.
Wouldnt take that long to relevel combat skills.
I just dont want to see tradeskills and favour reset - that would make me consider the drag in redoing them. I see that as the reward for doing alpha and beta testing.

[Dragone]

Would be nice if at game release or 1 stage earlier when at character selection you are prompted to you skill page, there it will show all your skills the level of your skills and maybe be able to let go of a specific skill and pick another ( preset amount of skills) this process will cause you to lose x amount/ percentage of xp.

[Crissa]

I certainly don't know if I need the ten-fifteen levels in sword and fire I have, but... I have avoided the 'permanent' choices just because they get in the way of leveling.

[Eachna]

I certainly don't know if I need the ten-fifteen levels in sword and fire I have, but... I have avoided the 'permanent' choices just because they get in the way of leveling.

I've avoided them because I don't know how they'll work after launch. Things change in testing and the skills as they end up probably won't be what they are now.

Citan could decide to make the perma-costs very different and I could end up unhappy with what those costs are with no way to avoid it.