Update Discussion: December 20, 2018

[srand]

The update notes are here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?1902-Update-Notes-December-20-2018&p=13895#post13895

Discussion is in this thread! But please remember to report any bugs through the in-game reporting system so we can track them.

[ramonsantana]

I was really hoping they’d make necromancer mages and guardian pets easier to summon without the graveyard requirement, it’s pretty mich the same necromancy with a few improvements but the core of having those pets stays the same and very counterproductive to bother with the class that relies on pets

[MorKazim]

thank you for the update. i think the major problem with the undead is the summoning of them. the cemetery requirement... and the zombies very fast health deterioration. this is something that you should fix.

[INXS]

Dangerously weapons. After crafting about 90 weapons, then selecting only the yellow/purples adding to the yellow/purples i found few reds were in the mix, i broke collectively almost 100 weapons and wasted 1800 expert slabs trying to achieve a +300. so much resources/time wasted a " sorry " isn't good enough.When the recipe was released it was taken down then after some rework released again and it was good. Are this weapon overpowered not really, i actually felt like i could keep up damage wise with most, now we are all back at the bottom of the list on damage, love how other issues are ignored but as soon as some of the under achieving skills get some deserving attention it get all erased. Nothing better now to go to GK and see others post the same damage on kills like yesterday... but not some of us, truly a "back stab" move.

[Yaffy]

Dangerously weapons. After crafting about 90 weapons, then selecting only the yellow/purples adding to the yellow/purples i found few reds were in the mix, i broke collectively almost 100 weapons and wasted 1800 expert slabs trying to achieve a +300. so much resources/time wasted a " sorry " isn't good enough.When the recipe was released it was taken down then after some rework released again and it was good. Are this weapon overpowered not really, i actually felt like i could keep up damage wise with most, now we are all back at the bottom of the list on damage, love how other issues are ignored but as soon as some of the under achieving skills get some deserving attention it get all erased. Nothing better now to go to GK and see others post the same damage on kills like yesterday... but not some of us, truly a "back stab" move.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I am very happy that the enchantments have been removed. Yes, they were helpful when you got a buffed up weapon, but I believe they weren't healthy for the game as a whole, and not something anything should be balanced around.

Think about it like this. I don't know what skill you're talking about, but if you believe that the skill is extremely weak and needs dangerous enchantments to compete, then that reveals how flawed the skill was in the first place. If everyone needed to go through dangerous enchantments in order to be decently strong, then you're asking that every new player dump potentially millions of councils worth of items into trying to upgrade their own weapons. As a long time player that might be possible, but telling new players "Don't use that skill unless if you're ready to pump millions into it" would be very demotivating to players who wanted to try it out but don't have a fortune saved. Not only that, but the idea of needing to spend tons of resources just to get a skill to comparable strength is silly when other skills can do it for free.

If you think there's a problem with the skill, then make sure to state what it is! That way the developers can fix it in a way that is more fun, enjoyable and applicable to everyone who wants to try it. Dangerous enchantments should not be the fix to the problem because only some players will actually be able to take advantage of it.

[INXS]

Some players? I think the reason they were introduced is to help out skills that are under-performing compare to rest finally some decent damage to skills, numbers were now at par with my BC, archery and fire/ice magic skills, made skills too powerful, rofl ! How about you try out archery Yaffy and let me know after you max it and all how hammer holds up to it, don't bother i can tell you it's pitiful now. Like i said finally able to dish out damage just like the rest of the peeps in group, be a part of something, now it's all taken back, least they could have done is tell us they were shutting it off, just today crafted 35 max weapons and broke 13 of them using 480 slabs that's total inconsideration on their part of the time and effort it took to do that a simple btw on the next patch we turning off dangerously weapon so stop wasting time/money/resources.

[MorKazim]

please stop talking again about the damage upgrade recipes... the upgrade was necro major. talk about that...

[Krakatau]

please stop talking again about the damage upgrade recipes... the upgrade was necro major. talk about that...

How about you try not to dictate to others what they want to talk about. The recipes were a part of the update as well and should be discussed if it's important to that poster. I never used them, but if I dumped a lot of time and resources into them and they were removed with nothing more than oops, I'd be up in arms as well.

[Tagamogi]

On a totally different note: I already said this last year but I love the tree decorations. And the presents. And Kleave's attitude. I'll probably stop bouncing around over the presents sometime and start reading the rest of the patch notes, but likely not before the next patch.

Oh, I did check out the new animal abilities. Both the rabbit abilities look like fun and so appropriate but I'm not really sure about the new cow ability. I guess I'm with Raul and it seems rather undignified...

[DamageIncorp]

I agree with INXS.
I spent considerable time and resources in getting a decent plus 200 sword. It is by no means broken.
I felt the simple damage was a good fix.
I hope they realize that simple damage was a nice mini boost and put it back.
Frustrating that some of the truly broken skills have seen no nerf....werewolf...psychology

[Mbaums]

The dangerous recipes had a specific goal aimed at mid level players and it missed the mark massively. Level 70s burning through the amount of materials described here is why it was removed. You guys feel like you need to max out weapons with +simple damage and there are far better ways to perfect your character /build at 70. Not every build is going to be equal damage to fire and ice magic, and some builds like knife look dull VS trash, but on a boss with higher hp absolutely dominate. And brining up lycan doesn't even apply, it's just such a different animal. the pain in the butt they deal with to get 70 is just not worth it to me. Two full moons just to unlock 60+?no thank you.

[Yaffy]

To talk about the other changes...

Spider: Looks a lot stronger now. Spider/Druid was already a pretty good build and now spider has a lot more poison power. Definitely a very strong DPS now! Incubate being a side bar ability and the baby spiders being stronger will make leveling a bit easier and save up a main bar slot too. Spider got a lot of love this update for sure. Also infinite legs looks a lot stronger too. It was already kind of a silly and gimmicky build but now it looks like it'll be silly, gimmicky and actually pretty good.

Necro: Not too sure on how much better the minions are and it's gonna need some testing. Fixing all the bugs is great though. There's a few bonuses to other damage types sprinkled in Necro which is a bit awkward (There's nothing that really does good Psychic, fire and lightning damage at the same time) but it might encourage some builds that are focused on those damage types with some minions sprinkled in to help. Looks good but it'll definitely need to be tested out to see what kind of builds can be made!

Cow: A little weird on this one. Cow actually got a lot of extra indirect nature damage, meaning that something like Druid/Cow can do respectable nature DoTs. I think the intention might be to make a thorns build from this. In any case that's nice since Cow was always lacking in damage. The tank changes are good (Thank god Graze doesn't have all those mods separated now) but they don't really look super helpful. You can get a very beefy 48 flat damage reduction versus physical now which is a huge amount for flat damage but not terribly helpful due to being physical only and flat reduction. The other mods like extra armor are ok but not terribly helpful either. Stampede getting taunt makes it easier to start as a tank at least.

Deer: Nothing really notable to be honest. Some nice little buffs, but I think Deer is on the weaker end and could use some more love. The new ability's mods looks like it's pushing towards deer being a tank but Deer is heavily lacking in good tanking ability, so for the most part it's just a cantrip ability.

Rabbit: Seems a bit silly but some more abilities are nice! Mostly just a bunch of changes to flesh out rabbit and I like it. Nothing really stands out as "Wow so good!" but overall the skill looks a bit more versatile. There's definitely a push towards unarmed/rabbit here with all the psychic and crushing damage stuff, and play dead having a better cool down can help with that a lot.

[INXS]

Mbaums, i got 3 different set skills all at lv 70 with own crafted/augumented yellow gear, without a +300 hammer/club the skill is weak compare to my all other builds, the +300 like i said puts it at same level as my other maxed skill. Aimed for mid level players if that's the case then it was a huge blunder on their part, in 2 years i have to yet meet a lv 40-50 player with lv 50ish surveying able to do expert motherloads for the dangerous recipe! Anyway huge f up on their side, sad a few whining people loving the game unbalanced, wolf hitting for 8k damage on a AoE, Broken! god forbid my 2.6k epic damage needed nerfing! Let's not even go to Unarmed, so needing nerfing year ago.

[Ranperre]

The devs' handling of dangerous weapons has been arguably deceitful. Reintroducing a nerfed version provided a reasonable assumption to the player base that they were sticking around in some form. If completely trashing them was on the table, we should have known about it ASAP; I'd argue that disabling them (something that didn't happen during the first incarnation when people had +400-500) is "completely trashing". I spent 1000-1200 expert slabs over the past seven days.

I'm not asking for any recompense, but some communication next time would be nice.

[Murk]

Some Necromancy feedback

Some quick points, and then onto the main difficulty I have with necromancy as regards the fun of the skill.

I’ve not got a proper chance yet to evaluate the damage and mod changes to the necromancy minions because of lack of current gear, and that I never unlocked past 60, but they seem to be somewhat better damage wise. I therefore can’t say too much about it at the moment.

I think the zombie summon changes were good, and that works well now. (again not sure about the damage aspect)

The provoke undead skill is similar to the animal handling Monstrous Rage skill in that it lacks a tactical nuance, and by that I mean mostly that you should just use it always when it’s ready to use, the only reason not to use would be opportunity cost over another skill. They are not bad skills but there isn’t much variety in how you can use them. I’ve not seen all the mods yet so this may not always be the case.

My main bugbear with necromancy is the dead pet problem. There has been feedback on this before, but I’ve not seen anything to explain why it should stay the way it is, or I’ve missed it. It would be good to have some feedback on this.

The main problem is that most people, I assume will, like with animal handling, make a build around using necromancy skeletons. When your pets die two things happen: You lose damage output and you loose part of your build theme, and it feels like quite a pain when it’s not so easy to re-summon. In particular when you are with a party, or at some place nowhere near a graveyard.

The graveyard mechanic is great, as is the gravestone mechanic. I wonder if we could have some feedback on this as to why the pets could not be re-summoned more easily. Some solutions perhaps could be (just throwing out examples):



A timer of say 1 hour when you can re-summon pets, before you have to then find a graveyard
Some summoning item you make at graveyards that can only be carried in limited quantities.
Pets can re-summon but are weaker.
Rend some of your health to re-summon a pet
If you yourself die, then you are allowed to re-summon once.
Allow summoning of creatures you have not summoned previously unless you visit a graveyard

There are many possibilities without changing any fundamental aspect, I think a fair few people find the dead necromancy pet problem a bit annoying as it currently stands.

On being a dead player with necromancy pets:- If you die, your pets continue to exist in the world, and (especially if there is a re-spawn wait in effect,) your pets get beat up in front of you, which is contrary to the animal handling behavior. I think this really should work similarly as for animal handling where your pets de-spawn on your death.

The slightly odd thing is that Animal Handlers can bring their pets back to life quite easily, and their team mates these days, yet a necromancer specialized in undead dealings can’t seem to complete. With the exception of course - of the zombies. There is a certain core about being able to summon your skeletons and when it’s difficult I think it kills the mood, and in previous situations I’ve switched out to another skill, and to be fair It’s become one of my less favorite skills party because of this.

[lileth]

Mbaums, ...Aimed for mid level players if that's the case then it was a huge blunder on their part, in 2 years i have to yet meet a lv 40-50 player with lv 50ish surveying able to do expert motherloads for the dangerous recipe!

I have no desire to enter this pissing contest and I could care less about the recipe issue and this isn't personal because I don't know most of you.

But regarding the quoted comment that I've highlighted...Nice to meet you, there are at least 3 of us capable of doing this at that lvl range and have had the capability for probably well over a year +.

[HardRock]

What mid level player has 40 blacksmithing? I cant think of any. The damage could have been capped per level on the item. lvl 70s cap at 300, 60s 250, 50s 200, 40s 150, 30s 100, 20s 50, and 10s 24 or nothing at all.



I didn't even feel that sword needed damage love, hell I remember back when sword was nerfed 8% damage across the board. So then we are allowed to up the damage for huge amount of resources. Sure fine, seems like a great way to keep us higher lvls busy. Pretty much the same as releasing +20% potions for every class. Invigorated the economy. Made the price of magic sand rise to the point where if you wanted it for nibs, well good luck. The manner in which this was tested/ removed left a poor impression on me. Why not leave the +damage weapons in the game? As a thank you to the people that spent the time testing the mechanic, it was expensive and very time consuming. I never even got to making a +300 though not due to lack of trying.

[HardRock]

Some Necromancy feedback

Some quick points, and then onto the main difficulty I have with necromancy as regards the fun of the skill.

I’ve not got a proper chance yet to evaluate the damage and mod changes to the necromancy minions because of lack of current gear, and that I never unlocked past 60, but they seem to be somewhat better damage wise. I therefore can’t say too much about it at the moment.

I think the zombie summon changes were good, and that works well now. (again not sure about the damage aspect)

The provoke undead skill is similar to the animal handling Monstrous Rage skill in that it lacks a tactical nuance, and by that I mean mostly that you should just use it always when it’s ready to use, the only reason not to use would be opportunity cost over another skill. They are not bad skills but there isn’t much variety in how you can use them. I’ve not seen all the mods yet so this may not always be the case.

My main bugbear with necromancy is the dead pet problem. There has been feedback on this before, but I’ve not seen anything to explain why it should stay the way it is, or I’ve missed it. It would be good to have some feedback on this.

The main problem is that most people, I assume will, like with animal handling, make a build around using necromancy skeletons. When your pets die two things happen: You lose damage output and you loose part of your build theme, and it feels like quite a pain when it’s not so easy to re-summon. In particular when you are with a party, or at some place nowhere near a graveyard.

The graveyard mechanic is great, as is the gravestone mechanic. I wonder if we could have some feedback on this as to why the pets could not be re-summoned more easily. Some solutions perhaps could be (just throwing out examples):



A timer of say 1 hour when you can re-summon pets, before you have to then find a graveyard
Some summoning item you make at graveyards that can only be carried in limited quantities.
Pets can re-summon but are weaker.
Rend some of your health to re-summon a pet
If you yourself die, then you are allowed to re-summon once.
Allow summoning of creatures you have not summoned previously unless you visit a graveyard

There are many possibilities without changing any fundamental aspect, I think a fair few people find the dead necromancy pet problem a bit annoying as it currently stands.

On being a dead player with necromancy pets:- If you die, your pets continue to exist in the world, and (especially if there is a re-spawn wait in effect,) your pets get beat up in front of you, which is contrary to the animal handling behavior. I think this really should work similarly as for animal handling where your pets de-spawn on your death.

The slightly odd thing is that Animal Handlers can bring their pets back to life quite easily, and their team mates these days, yet a necromancer specialized in undead dealings can’t seem to complete. With the exception of course - of the zombies. There is a certain core about being able to summon your skeletons and when it’s difficult I think it kills the mood, and in previous situations I’ve switched out to another skill, and to be fair It’s become one of my less favorite skills party because of this.


Since necro pets are already dead and a PITA to summon, what if they simply reanimated with a slight loss of str. After say a min of not dying again the penalty could be lifted.

Necros should also be allowed to carry a bag of bones around. The bag of bones would act as a graveyard that you could summon your skeles from. It doesn't need to replace the die 3x upon entering a dungeon to create a graveyard, just an additional alternate way of doing things. Perhaps the bag of bones is a special drop from a rare/difficult boss.

[JWBoosh]

It's an early access game, sounds like some of you expect it to behave like a released title in there being no major changes that would render some of your play time or effort insignificant. There is a wipe coming, all your items will be gone anyway. Don't play an early access game with unrealistic expecations that a lot of your effort and time won't be wasted, it will, as is the nature of it.