End Game Problem of MMO's?

[Aionlasting]

Is the current model of racing to the end game to endlessly farm raid bosses for gear that is only replaced a year or two later by a level cap raise and new raid bosses killing the MMO experience? Sure, there is pvp, but PG is not a pvp game, so I will leave it out of the discussion.

Personally, I yearn for the days when it wasn't about the destination , but the journey. For those that do not know what I am eluding to, I can only rely on my oldest MMO experience which is Ac2. This game had no 'raid bosses' though it did have server wide quests for bosses that were akin to raid bosses but these were not done for loot only to be replaced by later content but done for experience in a game where level cap did not exist.

Does the MMO industry face a crises of game design when all games are designed to be rushed through to reach an end where the gameplay is exhaustively repetitive for rewards that feel meaningless, antiquated quickly, and detached from accomplishment?

Even Mounts are a dime a dozen in MMO's these days and they just don't have that feeling of accomplishment or prestige that I personally felt when I got my mount in Ac2.

I worry even for PG with the stated level cap of 100/125 (125/150 with synergy) that we will reach a place in the game where the journey will be replaced by the destination and everyone will be rushing through the leveling experience and all the exploration it brings to sit at max level and farm raid bosses.

I know some people love this, and for many years this was a gamestyle I enjoyed because I played World of Warcraft this way. But after a few years this novelty has entirely worn off on me and, in fact, I find WoW to be utterly boring and I hate how leveling my character means nothing in that game anymore. The journey is completely eviscerated from the game. That being said, I still love the LORE of WoW and Enjoy seeing how it develops but I cannot bring myself to play it. I've tried almost each expansion to get back into it but at max level I scarcly last longer than a month.

Does anyone have thoughts on this issue? I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer because so much of this is subjective and personal opinion, it comes down to what the gamer likes, and I know that what I like isn't what the next person likes, so I'm not saying I'm right or youre wrong, just trying to talk about a subject that I see increasingly an issue in the MMO world.

[Daguin]

I'm at the cap.... but I still have a lot to do in game besides run GK endlessly. I find solace in "happy distractions" like daily chores, revisiting content, helping others, working on skills I haven't capped, and generally enjoying the rest of the game (casino is a nice place to take a load off if you can't be bothered to do much else). I agree with your overall point that the way most people play video games is a race to the end, but I've never felt like that was a fun way to play MMOs, or the most rewarding. Putting wipes aside... it has benefited me to play the long game with tons of random materials stashed, it never feels impossible to complete tasks. I haven't even scratched the surface of maxing any builds, creating any max enchanted weapons/armor, or trying a number of combat/animal skills after 2 years of daily play. For reference, think I would be considered a casual player with just a few hours put in each day. I am looking forward to new zones, dungeons, etc. which will open up the world to new exploration.

[Niph]

What's the alternative? PvE games can't have unlimited levels and content.

[cr00cy]

I think that eevrt MO is destined to face problem of people reaching max lv/bis gear and gettign bored. I don't hink it can be avoided, safe for drowing player sin cheap content, or forcing some relaly unresonable grind.

Hoever, I don't think racing to end game will be as much of a problem for PG, because of how progression looks like. In most mmo's, peoepl race to amx lv, becuase it's then when they have acces to all they toys(aka - they class skills/bets gear etc) In Pg you can obtain all abilites for your selected combta skills relativly quickly - higher levels just amke them stornger. Similary with gear. Lv 10 chect armor, have mostly the same mods that lv 70 - only differenc eis how strong they are. So ther eis not as much of a reason to rush to max lv.

I think it will also encurage more players to try things out, instead of rushing ahead.

Niph I think good alternative would be focusing more on horizontal progression than vertical. If new boss/area drops gear that is not stictly better than what we have, but trather have soem uniqe mods/skill combinations, it . Or, for crafters, ability to discover unique recipes that no one else can use(something similar exist already for Brewing).

[Grobyddonot]

End Game Problem of MMO's? (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?1896-End-Game-Problem-of-MMO-s)

It's not a problem, it's a business. Gotta keep the customers and make them pay for years. No one cares IF the gameplay and/or lore are interesting in WoW, not since BC/WOTLK anyway. Gotta have moar money. And lots of devs are/were trying to replicate WoW and it's success. Online gaming in general became a synonym for grind, even if it's an online FPS they'll add levels, perks, etc. Doesn't matter IF the game and weapons are good and creative, like it was back in the day. Remember Duke Nukem 3D, Wolfenstein, DOOM 1-2, Quake 1-3 and the first UT? Atmosphere, good gameplay, fun and original fantastic weapons. But 99% of the gaming industry went down the other road, games as a service, etc, etc. This is why games like Witcher 3 did great, RDR2 is doing great so far, this is why a game like Cyberpunk2077 will probably do great too. There is absolutely no need to pump out new content every 6 months, if the gameplay is actually fun and great. People are still playing some of the best RTS, FPS, RPGs of all time in 2018.

There is also the fact that the MMORPG is a dying genre, no wonder, most of them weren't RPG's anyway, not even close. RPG is not a lvlup in the game and not the ability to add points to stats/skills. There are/were very few to no choices and none of them influenced the world around you. I wouldn't call PG an RPG either tbh, it's too linear atm in the early access, you have no choices so far, only 1 role. Gotta kill all the monsters.

I love that there is no hard skillcap for a character in PG, absolutely. Want to lvlup everything, but, it's also a curse, because everyone can play solo, so most of your traditional roles, like say crafter, enchanter, trader, fighter, thief, etc are not there.

P.S. This is where the traditional tabletop RPG's come in btw. Roleplaying, custom stories and so on...

[Aionlasting]

What's the alternative? PvE games can't have unlimited levels and content.

That's a good question and I wonder if there is an answer? I have no development experience so I'll be honest about that. I only have the player side of things to rely on.

Question, why can we not have unlimited levels and content? Content does not need to be unlimited necessarily for players to have a sense of continual progression with their character.

For example, instead of placing a hard level cap because of content limitations, leave a soft cap in place where the current content doesn't necessarily permit easy leveling beyond its intended level but still allows one to continue leveling if one is determined enough. In this way, hardcore players and casual players can occupy the same world and consume the same content.

The hardcore players would go beyond the 'soft' cap to a certain extent as it would become increasingly difficult to do the more they distance themselves from current content's intended level and the casual players would rapidly catch up to these more hardcore players when appropriate content for that intended level is released in the form of a patch or expansion.

There is no need to separate the 'end game' from the leveling process. The journey and destination become one.

Hopefully that makes sense.

[Aionlasting]

It's not a problem, it's a business. Gotta keep the customers and make them pay for years. No one cares IF the gameplay and/or lore are interesting in WoW, not since BC/WOTLK anyway. Gotta have moar money. And lots of devs are/were trying to replicate WoW and it's success. Online gaming in general became a synonym for grind, even if it's an online FPS they'll add levels, perks, etc. Doesn't matter IF the game and weapons are good and creative, like it was back in the day. Remember Duke Nukem 3D, Wolfenstein, DOOM 1-2, Quake 1-3 and the first UT? Atmosphere, good gameplay, fun and original fantastic weapons. But 99% of the gaming industry went down the other road, games as a service, etc, etc. This is why games like Witcher 3 did great, RDR2 is doing great so far, this is why a game like Cyberpunk2077 will probably do great too.

There is also the fact that the MMORPG is a dying genre, no wonder, most of them weren't RPG's anyway, not even close. RPG is not a lvlup in the game and not the ability to add points to stats/skills. There are/were very few to no choices and none of them influenced the world around you. I wouldn't call PG an RPG either tbh, it's too linear atm in the early access, you have no choices so far, only 1 role. Gotta kill all the monsters.

I love that there is no hard skillcap for a character in PG, absolutely. Want to lvlup everything, but, it's also a curse, because everyone can play solo, so most of your traditional roles, like say crafter, enchanter, trader, fighter, thief, etc are not there.

P.S. This is where the traditional tabletop RPG's come in btw. Roleplaying, custom stories and so on...

Well each skill has a hardcap which I think will eventually leave people in the 'end game' situation of other MMO's but you are right in that you can pursue to cap every skill which is currently what I am doing and I assume most players are doing.

I think Citan stated it was not intended for everyone to be able to cap every skill because there will be specializations such as with combat skills using combat wisdom points to allow each combat skill to have sub categories. Similarly with crafting too where one crafting in a certain crafting skill would specialize in some sort of sub category a little differently from his neighbor who is also in the same craft skill.

I am okay with that and I think it will help bring those 'traditional roles' as you called it back into the picture.

My discussion though was what happens when you have the traditional roles and you have hard caps? Players get stuck and then they fall into the current 'end game' scenario that I described in my original post.

[Daguin]

Question, why can we not have unlimited levels and content? Content does not need to be unlimited necessarily for players to have a sense of continual progression with their character.

For example, instead of placing a hard level cap because of content limitations, leave a soft cap in place where the current content doesn't necessarily permit easy leveling beyond its intended level but still allows one to continue leveling if one is determined enough. In this way, hardcore players and casual players can occupy the same world and consume the same content.

The hardcore players would go beyond the 'soft' cap to a certain extent as it would become increasingly difficult to do the more they distance themselves from current content's intended level and the casual players would rapidly catch up to these more hardcore players when appropriate content for that intended level is released in the form of a patch or expansion.

There is no need to separate the 'end game' from the leveling process. The journey and destination become one.

Hopefully that makes sense.

There already exists in PG a form of this if a player wants to gain all of the "bonus" synergy levels which open up some unique recipes and mods (lvl80 stuff in game already for instance). The current system encourages players to not only try out different skills, but to sufficiently learn/experience them as you need to level most past 50+ for the top-end synergies.

[Grobyddonot]

My discussion though was what happens when you have the traditional roles and you have hard caps? Players get stuck and then they fall into the current 'end game' scenario that I described in my original post.

I've edited my first post to make more sense, but in essence, your fun gameplay is your endgame in any game, point being, that you do not need over9000 extra systems (lvlup, points, perks) in a FPS game for it to be great, replayable and be played for years and years after the release. Same goes for good RTS and other genres. It's not the endless conveyor of new content that makes any game great for a player. This is why you see the MMORPG genre dying, IMO. You have to invest way too much time into any MMORPG and the returns are not instant. An example would be stuff like Fast/Instant Travel gated behind a lvl or a skill lvl or a limited use behind a grind. (something PG still seriously lacks imho). There are other ways to encourage people to explore the world, but we're getting off the rails here.
On the other hand you have other games.. like anything non RPG.. even Poker or Chess. 5 seconds and you're in the game, pretty much even the "endgame content" already. And it's not the release of new content that makes people play Poker or Chess. There is a reason that games like that are not dying. Perfect formulae: Easy and fun to get in and play, hard (close to impossible) to master. When creating most videogames however, the devs are going the other way and in the end, even your hardocre gamer gets burned out pretty quickly. Goes for any genre. The example of "harder to master" videogame would be an RTS like Starcraft:Brood War (released 1998). One SCII, Remaster and 20 years later people are still playing and enjoying that 98' Broodwar, the competetive scene is still there, the ladder is still there. No need for any new levels, raid bosses and gear.

IMHO: the whole computer MMORPG genre, as we know it, will either slowly die (will take years however) OR it'll be reimagined, as it should. So that your casual player and your pro and your die hard, absolutely hardocre only fan - all will be able to start playing and have fun right away and continue to play (master) it for years. The fun/mastering process should not be gated/defined by lvls/skills/attributes/perks. That would be a new hit. [/imho]

[Daguin]

IMHO: the whole computer MMORPG genre, as we know it, will either slowly die (will take years however) OR it'll be reimagined, as it should.

I am very excited for the possibility, and would like to see quicker adoption, of the VR possibilities in MMORPG. It would bridge the gap between avatars and actually experiencing the world in greater depth. I am curious why there hasn't been a concerted push to move the genre in that direction, unless it is just too technically demanding for both developers and consumers in its current form.

[Grobyddonot]

I am very excited for the possibility, and would like to see quicker adoption, of the VR possibilities in MMORPG. It would bridge the gap between avatars and actually experiencing the world in greater depth. I am curious why there hasn't been a concerted push to move the genre in that direction, unless it is just too technically demanding for both developers and consumers in its current form.

I'm exicted too, esp. for VR and great AR. There is a list of problems with VR:
1) Difficulty to get in. (including tech. dif.) Only when the modern (for the time) Elderly and Youth will be able to access VR services/games/anything as easily as they are able to access messengers on their smartphones, it'll become mainstream. I do believe that this time will come, but obviously not in 2019. lol.
2) Costs. It's not enough atm to get a VR set only, you also need a computer, that is able and powerful enough to use it.
3) Very limited amount of diverse content/services. The internet is full of cats, games and porn, but it's not enough to make VR mainstream. Among great services, I would imagine something like an online shop in VR, where you can look at the products (dimensions, materials, quality as a complete VR 3D model), maybe even with some basic functionality. A step further would be try some clothing on online. (but that's way too far away).
4) The current VR tech itself is interesting, but it has to evolve too. It's not an alternate (digital) reality yet.
For instance, our primitive 3D image tech exists since the 19th Century and it hasn't really improved that much. VR has to improve.
That is just off the top of my head. Maybe there is more, I'm pretty sure that there are and will be some security issues too and so on...
P.S. and the thread is officialy off the rails. Gratz :p

[Aionlasting]

Daguin, I agree, this is a form of what I was speaking of but a limited form of what I mentioned as all your synergistic skills have hard caps and can only advance your desired skill beyond their own hardcap to a limited extent. In fairness to your point though, this does turn the hard cap of a skill into more of a soft cap because you can train up those other skills for the synergies which maybe only hardcore players are willing to do for that slight extra edge and because a soft cap eventually becomes a hardcap anyway when a player progresses so far past it to where he is no longer receiving xp from anything at an appreciable rate due to outleveling all the content.

@Grobly, Great points in regards to some of the games that seem impossible to kill. Fun, easy to get into, but difficult to master. I feel like a soft cap in skills provides the illusion of difficulty to master in that you can continue to progress your character in power beyond what the intended level of the current content is without having to add new content to the game but ultimately new content would need to find its way in as the soft cap would become a hardcap after progressing so far beyond it. Your thoughts on computer MMORPG genre dying a whole is a shocking one to think of for me because I'm not so sure it would happen but I could see an evolution into the VR as VR becomes more mainstream. That's quite a far off idea in my mind right now though.

[Murk]

What's the alternative? PvE games can't have unlimited levels and content.
PG has at least one thing that mitigates this to an extent, that is when you learn a new combat skill you have to go back over the lower levels to some extent to level your new combat skill, I know people power level this now, but there is an opportunity here to re-do the content with new people, or other people that have new combat skills, it's somewhat fun at least.

The other nice thing is that low level junk that low level players can find is useful. e.g. dirt, wood etc. It is good that these things are needed by higher level players.

There is this drive to "level up" simply because your guilds are all high up and you want to participate with them, and you want to contribute in a meaningful way and not just tag along on a high level dungeon. The solution here is, I don't know, but perhaps to give the lower levels some way of meaningfully contributing on a quests.

I will hereby give a mad and unworkable example to illustrate the point: All people under 30 are able to fully heal people over 30 with their healing kits or a spell. This isn't a solution, but it's an example of some reason why you might want a newer player around, and why you as a newer player would want to go on an otherwise high level quest. All the team members feel like they have some value, and as such perhaps would not feel the need to level up so quickly.

I am not sure how this would work, except perhaps if you had a skill line that you learn to level 30, and then at 31 you decide to switch it to some other skill, and you loose the original skill - but this - to some extent is what fixed skill lines are about, which PG does not have.

Chronicles of Elyria is interesting in this respect, as your character dies after about a year. Weather this works or not I don't know, but it's a new take on things for sure.

[Maztur]

First, I think what they've done with this game so far is OUTSTANDING! :)

For me, I think adding content, and not always content in how it is thought of, say, of a new map, is what keeps a game going. For instance, they have Guides and an Admin in the game at most times. The Admin does some on-the-spot events, such as challenging mob spawns and drawings for free items.

I wish this part of the game could even expand as it goes along. I really think that if there was a lot of out-of-the-box thinking, that 'capping out' wouldn't end the game for many players because they would have a reason to continue to play on. Thanks!

[Deldaron]

PG has at least one thing that mitigates this to an extent, that is when you learn a new combat skill you have to go back over the lower levels to some extent to level your new combat skill, I know people power level this now, but there is an opportunity here to re-do the content with new people, or other people that have new combat skills, it's somewhat fun at least.

The other nice thing is that low level junk that low level players can find is useful. e.g. dirt, wood etc. It is good that these things are needed by higher level players.


I think this is one of PGs biggest strengths. The way the skills progress really keeps lower level content alive. A great example is Flower arrangement. Because it's locked behind gardening you likely don't get it until late in the game. But the first recipes require you to use ingredients found only in lower level areas. This gives you two options, go back to the lower level area or buy them.

If you're going back to a lower area and you have another combat skill to work why not do both? If you're buying that will drive a market for them which will encourage people looking for money to spend time in these areas.

The farther the progression spreads there's a risk that people will try and skip over things, but I find the progression enjoyable enough to keep a low/mid level population around.

[Krustydog]

My first MMORPG was UO. Still my favorite to this day. There were multiple end game goals. Mega Crafter making the loots from selling gear. Control Champs and control the scroll market. PvP at Yew moongate. Heck, I used to like exploring and checking peoples houses out. Bank sitting was a thing. Just watching the world go by and chatting with friends. Ah, the glory days.

[Corax]

Chess has never needed upgraded pieces for people to keep playing it. You can always find something to do, especially when pvp is involved, but even old pve content can be tweaked for new challenges.

One thing I almost never see in RPGs is expirability. Food never rots, armor and weapons never get banged up beyond hope of repair, unused skills never become weaker. Consumables seem to be used mostly for buffs and ammo, but what if to even fight a particular boss you needed to create a large bomb (or equivalent), that is of course destroyed in use?

None of that addresses people's problems playing current MMOs, but it's some stuff I've been thinking about.

[weintmeder]

Is Path of Exile cross-platform?

[mouchella]

Path of Exile is not cross-platform. It does not have a patch for cross-play. Will it support this feature in the future? No one knows. What we do know is that there are no plans for this inclusion. The exclusion of cross-play PoE is a drawback. I can say that Gameplay is inherently multiplayer. It's an unforgettable feeling when you're slashing enemies with a poisonous blade. Even more memorable is the interaction with your friends. Grinding Gear Games is the force (https://thecursedcrusade.com/is-path-of-exile-cross-platform/) behind this magical creation. The company insists on its decision and firmly states that there will be no cross-play. But in any case, On these platforms, gamers can connect to one game, which is very convenient.

[Caperfin]

Is Path of Exile cross-platform?

I don't believe so, no.

[Sugarbelle]

I try to avoid rushing to the end in any game these days. I was a raider in EQ1 and EQ2 a decade ago. I feel like I ruined the experience for myself by being power-leveled to end game to raid dungeons for phat lewt. Especially when I make a new character just to explore, and I find out just how much I skipped just to rush to the top. I can imagine being a storyboard writer or an art designer knowing my content is rushed through or skipped by most players. It must be demoralizing. But I like to take a liberty minded stance on everything. If you want to skip it, go ahead. I just personally choose not to anymore.

[Caperfin]

I try to avoid rushing to the end in any game these days. I was a raider in EQ1 and EQ2 a decade ago. I feel like I ruined the experience for myself by being power-leveled to end game to raid dungeons for phat lewt. Especially when I make a new character just to explore, and I find out just how much I skipped just to rush to the top. I can imagine being a storyboard writer or an art designer knowing my content is rushed through or skipped by most players. It must be demoralizing. But I like to take a liberty minded stance on everything. If you want to skip it, go ahead. I just personally choose not to anymore.

As a designer/writer you'll never be able to please everyone you can just hope that some people will appreciate the amount of work you put in.

[Sommerlund]

Totaly agree with you.

I'm playing WoW Burning crusade classic, atm, but i start to get bored again. Didn't even try Shadowlands.
Project Gorgon is nice, i played it a lot at the begining, a bit befor it went on steam, but nothing compares to AC2 or even AC1 to me.