Update Discussion: October 18, 2018

[srand]

The update notes are here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?1814-Update-Notes-October-18-2018

Discussion in this thread! (But please remember to report any bugs through the in-game reporting system as well!)

[Yaffy]

The Halloween update stuff is cool, but I'm really upset at dangerous enchantments coming back. I take the fact that the break chance is higher as a personal insult, especially after I tried to explicitly state why it's not a good system for the game and simply not fun.

At the very least, if dangerous upgrades MUST stay in the game for whatever reason (And they really shouldn't), it needs to be available to all classes. An additional 300 to 600 damage on every attack is just asking for balance issues, and even then it would still cause more issues since some skills can take advantage of it a lot better than others.

Dangerous enchantments are basically like an end-game upgrade system, except only 3 weapons actually have access to it, it's incredibly boring since all it does is add a few points of damage at a time, and it's made in an incredibly frustrating way where you risk all your hard earned loot on a slot machine in the hopes you get something back. I think a lot of people would love a great end-game crafting/upgrade system, but dangerous enchantments are certainly not the way to go.

[spider91301]

The Halloween update stuff is cool, but I'm really upset at dangerous enchantments coming back. I take the fact that the break chance is higher as a personal insult, especially after I tried to explicitly state why it's not a good system for the game and simply not fun.

At the very least, if dangerous upgrades MUST stay in the game for whatever reason (And they really shouldn't), it needs to be available to all classes. An additional 300 to 600 damage on every attack is just asking for balance issues, and even then it would still cause more issues since some skills can take advantage of it a lot better than others.

Dangerous enchantments are basically like an end-game upgrade system, except only 3 weapons actually have access to it, it's incredibly boring since all it does is add a few points of damage at a time, and it's made in an incredibly frustrating way where you risk all your hard earned loot on a slot machine in the hopes you get something back. I think a lot of people would love a great end-game crafting/upgrade system, but dangerous enchantments are certainly not the way to go.

Kinda have to agree but live and learn it will sort itself out probably not in a good nice gentle way but who am I to disagree with the system

[NickzMagic]

I heavily agree on the dangerous recipes for 3 item types only is bad. Even after the nerfs to the recipe and nerfs to multipliers(which affects hammer greatly) I still literally only use hammer abilities to kill things. I have gear that is fully modded for battle chemistry and hammer but using bombs for damage is a waste of time when I can be using literally any hammer ability.

The gap between the 2 skills might be lower if I was using say sword/archery instead but still I imagine +300 damage is going to create a huge gap from any other ability.

I do quite like the dangerous recipes and disagree with Yaffy on the 'losing everything' part, there doesn't seem to be much reward in farming in gorgon since there are no rare drops or expensive things to use your money on(once you've uncapped and unlocked all your skills)

[Yaffy]

I do quite like the dangerous recipes and disagree with Yaffy on the 'losing everything' part, there doesn't seem to be much reward in farming in gorgon since there are no rare drops or expensive things to use your money on(once you've uncapped and unlocked all your skills)

I don't want to speak for you, but it sounds like the reason why you like the Dangerous enchantments isn't because of the RNG breaking part, but because it's an end game upgrade system you can dump a lot of time/resources into and you simply don't mind the RNG part. My question is why we couldn't just have an upgrade system that requires a lot of time/effort that DOESN'T revolve entirely around getting lucky?

Even if you like the grind, someone could just simply stumble on a +300 weapon on their first try and circumvent all the grind (Which is quite likely currently), or someone could try for ages and never get it. If the developers want to add an end game grind, at least make it more consistent. Not only that, but once again, it could be so much better. +2 damage per upgrade is lame and seems like such a cop out for an end game upgrade system. There's no customization, no choices, and the upgrade itself isn't interesting. It's simply +2 damage.

I think the issue here is that the devs probably didn't think dangerous enchantments would actually be a big thing. It makes sense considering why it's only available for 3 weapons and presented so casually as some side prize at a casino. The issue here is that not only is the potential benefit good, but there's no reason why people wouldn't want an extra 300 damage on every hit, so essentially it's a goal every player needs to do assuming they want to strengthen their character.

The fact the devs might have not intended for it to be an end game upgrade system is another big problem I have with it, it's such a dead end to any possibilities the devs might have. If the devs actually want to implement some sort of cool end game upgrade system, then dangerous enchantments are going to ruin it because everyone is going to need to run their gear through the dangerous enchantment slot machine first before any actually fun and complex upgrade system, otherwise they risk losing something they've invested heavily in.

[NickzMagic]

I actively like the RNG part and think that the fact that someone can just 'get lucky' is a positive.

I don't exactly disagree with your points Yaffy, I do simply like that there's a new thing to invest a bunch of time into. If we instead got another system I'd probably still be almost as happy. I still don't really see the difference in this system to any other that involves luck

Also a side note, one suggestion I've seen for uncapped/high cap upgrades is for them to have downsides. For example +3 damage -1 armor or maybe +.x% element damage but also +x% damage taken, this would fix the problem of it being uninteresting. I personally find the current system as uninteresting as you seem to find the +flat damage, extracting and augmenting an extra mod for the next-best ability you use isn't exactly interesting.

[ProfessorCat]

Since the crowd against the enchanted recipes is so vocal, I feel obligated to declare my appreciation about it.

I think it's an exciting new mechanic that furthers a players options for a custom build.

300 damage is about equal to a level 70 weapon mod (you're in denial If you don't think weapons get the best mods) and in many cases, a WORSE option than what's available. When level 80+ comes out, in fact, this will become obsolete.

Excited with the rest of the update, too! Trick or treat, Lord Serbule!

[NickzMagic]

300 damage is about equal to a level 70 weapon mod (you're in denial If you don't think weapons get the best mods) and in many cases, a WORSE option than what's available. When level 80+ comes out, in fact, this will become obsolete.


+300 damage on all 6 of your abilities is far better than a mod on one, pretty sure +300 damage is better than most single mod I know of that adds more than 300 damage is decapitate to non-elites. For reference I am still just using a +300 damage level 30 hammer rather than swapping to a +1-200 level 70. The recipe also does not consume enhancement points so it's not a choice between it and augmentation, you do both.

[ProfessorCat]

Okay, listen. Literally every other mod compounds with %bonus damage, and further boosts with calligraphy, sword lord potions, sword bonus potions, etc. In the case of the decapitate mod, that extra damage from its mod adds to over 1k damage on non elites if you have a fully modded build; before you factor in potions and buffs.

This adds a FLAT tree hundy AFTER all of that. In most cases, the 20% base damage mod is better on your heavy hitting attacks, because it compounds with your other attacks.

Before Citan had stated the intent was to add a couple thousand damage to a fully modded big hit. You guys got your way. Now it only ever adds 300 (unless the target is already weak against your attack)

The only argument I can see is on basic attacks, but even then the damage is so negligible compared to a fully modded build, and I for one rarely use basic attacks anymore.

An overreaction from a few players got this entire mechanic pulled before me, and almost everyone else even got a chance to try it.

Reading through all of the threads and in game rants about this for the past week and a half was overkill.

The mechanic has been neutered beyond its original idea. Someone left the cake out in the rain. And we'll never have that recipe again.

Edit:
And holy cow boarding, can we talk about the fact you will need on average 25+ Yellow level 70 weapons to make this work on a fully modded build!? It comes with a heavy price!

[Niph]

If each application of the recipe adds +2, and the cap is 300, and the risk of breaking the weapon is 3%, on average it will reach the cap once every 96 break. It's quite expensive, so it really depends how far you dare to go, or rather how many weapons you're going to waste before you give up.

[Yaffy]

I think it's an exciting new mechanic that furthers a players options for a custom build.

300 damage is about equal to a level 70 weapon mod (you're in denial If you don't think weapons get the best mods) and in many cases, a WORSE option than what's available. When level 80+ comes out, in fact, this will become obsolete.


Dangerous enchantments don't have a downside or a trade off with anything because they don't cost enchantment points. You aren't losing a mod slot in order to have dangerous enchantments on them. You can have a max enchanted weapon WITH an additional mod on it with transmutation AND 300 damage from the dangerous enchantment. That's why there's no choice or customization. When level 80 weapons come out, it will be the same deal where there is no reason not to want +300 damage on it aside from not wanting to go through with the frustration involved with gambling.



This adds a FLAT tree hundy AFTER all of that. In most cases, the 20% base damage mod is better on your heavy hitting attacks, because it compounds with your other attacks.

This is not true. Simple damage still gets multiplied by a few bonuses. In fact, it gets multiplied by any bonuses that would also multiply base damage bonuses. The only way +300 damage would be worse than 20% base damage is if the base damage of every attack you use is greater than 1500. The highest base damage out of the three current weapons is Decapitate at 761.

[ProfessorCat]

pulled directly from the patch notes:

"The three blacksmithing recipes to "dangerously" improve an item have returned. (The "danger" is that the item may shatter and be destroyed.) The chance for the item to be destroyed has increased from 2% to 3%, and the weapon now gains simple damage, not regular damage. Simple damage is not multiplied by any other gear mod benefits, but it is still multiplied by the enemy's vulnerabilities, or lack thereof."

and

"Add +2 Simple Sword Damage to a sword, up to a maximum of +300. The sword must have enchantments of at least level 30. Simple damage is added to the total damage after all other multipliers. This recipe does not use Enhancement Points, but there is a 3% chance the weapon will shatter and be destroyed. (Must be near a forge.)"

This means they programmed a brand new damage mechanic based off of complaints about how it was built before, I can't possibly imagine anyone could ask for a bigger nerf on this mechanic.

Also, for sword and knife, there is no "Max Enchanted" at this time. Only clubs and staffs are crafable, meaning at this time, only hammer will have the benefit of having a "8th" enchantment. I see this as fair, as most all skills have a sort of secondary skill that makes them stronger

Sword - Calligraphy - now dangerous enchantment - no max enchantment
Knife - Nothing before, and was very under powered, now can potentially have 2x dangerous enchantment
Hammer - can Max Enchant, dangerous enchant, buckle artistry (probably the biggest benefit from dangeorus enchantment)
Staff - Hopology, Max enchantment
Fire/Ice - Lore gives elemental bonus
Unarmed - meditation, no max enchanted mainhand
Archery/Ment/Psych - critical hit chance
virtually any other skill can get a Max enchanted mod, as you can use a crafted staff or club for this
I'm probably missing other "boosting"skills.

I see this as a way to balance sword/hammer/knife into the fold, and rather than being a static buff like other skills have, your long earned +300 damage sword knife or hammer will have to be replaced every time a new level set comes out, or you decide you would prefer a different mainhand weapon.

[Yaffy]

Simple damage is not multiplied by any other gear mod benefits, but it is still multiplied by the enemy's vulnerabilities, or lack thereof."


Simple damage is still modified by things such as bonuses to damage types and debuffs on enemies that cause them to take more damage. These are the same bonuses that would scale with % bonuses to base damage. I know you are just reading the patch notes, but you are assuming something that isn't true. If you need a more in depth explanation, I created a thread about the damage formula which has all the information you need to know on how simple damage and base damage works.

https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?1801-Damage-Calculation-Formula-amp-Why-Deadlier-Weapons-are-so-Strong
Go to page two for the damage formula as it is now.



This means they programmed a brand new damage mechanic based off of complaints about how it was built before, I can't possibly imagine anyone could ask for a bigger nerf on this mechanic.


The original version of dangerous enchantments was really, really broken. Now it is simply "Really good" rather than being outright busted. If you're curious about the math the thread I posted also explains it (Look for the post explaining leaping smash)



I see this as fair, as most all skills have a sort of secondary skill that makes them stronger


Not only is +300 or +600 attack way better than the other secondary skill bonuses, but it's way more frustrating than them too which creates an issue. If you were to balance them so they were in line, then you're making knife have to jump through these risky hoops to craft a strong weapon while other skills simply craft a recipe like calligraphy or meditation.



Also, for sword and knife, there is no "Max Enchanted" at this time. Only clubs and staffs are crafable, meaning at this time, only hammer will have the benefit of having a "8th" enchantment.


That wasn't my point, I was using it as an example to state how there isn't a downside or something you're giving up for the upgrade. In your posts before you were talking as if you had to sacrifice a mod for +300 damage, for example:



This adds a FLAT tree hundy AFTER all of that. In most cases, the 20% base damage mod is better on your heavy hitting attacks, because it compounds with your other attacks.


or


300 damage is about equal to a level 70 weapon mod (you're in denial If you don't think weapons get the best mods) and in many cases, a WORSE option than what's available. When level 80+ comes out, in fact, this will become obsolete.


Both of these arguements don't apply when dangerous enchantments can simply be stacked on top of these mods with no issues.

[ProfessorCat]

If the damage is being multiplied by other modifiers, report it as a bug. The first two paragraphs I posted were pulled directly from the patch notes, and were from Srand herself, and indicate the damage is no longer multiplied, and was created as simple damage.

Your previous damage calculations are now outdated, and would need to be redone since this recent patch. Furthermore, the addition/multiplication of % boost mods has been re-adjusted, and it is not hitting as hard as it was before, so the numbers should be signifigantly weaker using a +300 damage weapon, compared to your original numbers.

The lack of max enchanted mods is entirely relevant to the addition of dangerous enchantments. Until knife and sword are craftable, they are marginally better off with a +300 dangerous enchantment, than any other skill is with the extra mod. And once again, this is after collecting many many yellow level 70 weapons, all the resources to craft, and not even a gaurentee you'll have anything to show for it. I'm certain this is the intent of the skill itself. Hammer is the only recipe that receives a bigger benefit, but once again, this 300 damage is intended to be added after all other damage is calculated, it does not receive any additional multipliers other than a creatures natural weakness. If it is acting any other way, it needs to be reported as a bug.

EDIT:

I just realized, a crafted hammer (club) will not be able to have dangerous enchantment added. So this means that only metal clubs can potentially have the +300 damage on hammer. So then yes, not a single weapon that can have dangerous enchantment on it can also have 6 mods. So your choice on mainhand builds are:

Sword - 6 mods, dangerous enchantment
Knife - 6 mods, dangerous enchament
Hammer - 6 mods +Dangerous enchantment OR 7 mods
unarmed - gets the shaft with 6 mods on both hands, unless you want to limit to kick, knee kick, headbut, and body slam, in which case you could use a +7 max enchanted mainhand weapon

Virtually every other skill in the game can utilize a 7 mod/max enchanted mainhand.

Is +300 damage better than an additional mod? Most times yes, certainly not all times.

It comes with a MUCH higher price than rolling a mod, pulling it, and applying it.

[Yaffy]

Your previous damage calculations are now outdated, and would need to be redone since this recent patch. Furthermore, the addition/multiplication of % boost mods has been re-adjusted, and it is not hitting as hard as it was before, so the numbers should be signifigantly weaker using a +300 damage weapon, compared to your original numbers.

That's what I did. That's why I said to go to page two on that forum thread.



I just realized, a crafted hammer (club) will not be able to have dangerous enchantment added. So this means that only metal clubs can potentially have the +300 damage on hammer. So then yes, not a single weapon that can have dangerous enchantment on it can also have 6 mods.


It does work on clubs. The recipe name says hammer but it also applies to clubs. I have a +300 damage club right now that I have shown in multiple screenshots. If you have the recipe yourself it even states it works on clubs in the description.

https://i.imgur.com/Utf8UMx.png

I'm sorry ProfessorCat, I know you want to share your own opinion, but you should study how the dangerous enchantment works first and try it out yourself. I'm not just getting mad for no reason, I've studied how this works and tried both varients of the enchantment first hand which is why I'm complaining about it. Your opinions are valid but you keep stating a lot of things which are factually untrue, both about how the mods work and the math behind it.

[ProfessorCat]

You're right, I did not check in game, and assumed you couldn't black smith a wooden club. My guess is that's also not intentional. I was wrong to assume that before checking.

Can we share this humble pie? You keep saying "that's not how the enchantment works". read Srand's update about the simple damage. It states twice in the patch notes that the simple damage does not receive a boost from other mods/multipliers.

Based off of this fact alone, all your numbers and math, which were correct at the time of posting, need to be re-evaluated to see if, in fact, they are still working incorrectly based off of this most recent update.

In ADDITION to the simple damage change to dangerous enchantment, virtually all skills got a nerf with damage calculations. Before a % boost to damage, was multiplied to the previous total. Now that number is ADDED to the total % boost of all skills, potions, buffs, etc.

I did not have any math on dangerous enchantment before. But I absolutely see a difference in my current builds since this latest patch. My attacks are mostly all weaker, as the new % calculation is indeed performing as advertised in this latest patch notes.

You are holding onto frustrations of the original broken mechanic for dangerous enchanting. The patch notes are telling you it was reduced to be only addition. I am saying the same thing, and you're either not wanting to hear it from me, or not believing it from the patch notes.

[Yaffy]

Can we share this humble pie? You keep saying "that's not how the enchantment works". read Srand's update about the simple damage. It states twice in the patch notes that the simple damage does not receive a boost from other mods/multipliers.

Based off of this fact alone, all your numbers and math, which were correct at the time of posting, need to be re-evaluated to see if, in fact, they are still working incorrectly based off of this most recent update.

But I did do the correct math, once again on page two. Srand states it doesn't get multiplied, but it does. My math is not based off of guessing, it is based off of testing. It is understandable that it works the way it does as well, because two of the things that multiply the damage are debuffs on the enemy in which case they are external to your character, and one of them is based on damage type which makes sense considering how the simple damage enchantment should stack versus enemy resistances, although I could see logic as to why it might not be expected.

Another way of seeing it is that Srand says it doesn't multiply from MODS, which is true, but damage type modifiers and debuffs are not necessarily from mods, even though they can be created from them. This is most likely what was intended when they made that statement.



You are holding onto frustrations of the original broken mechanic for dangerous enchanting. The patch notes are telling you it was reduced to be only addition. I am saying the same thing, and you're either not wanting to hear it from me, or not believing it from the patch notes.


You are speaking for me in a way that is not only untrue, but completely misses my point on why I did not like the mechanic. I have made threads on why I wouldn't like the mechanic, even if it was nerfed to absurd degrees even before it was actually nerfed. Not only that, but as someone who plays hammer and benefited greatly from the originally overpowered mechanic, why would I be frustrated over it being overpowered? It was kinda fun for all of my attacks to become nukes. I am upset because I believe the design is harmful to the game as a whole.

Yes the patch notes are saying the enchantment is weakened, but not only is it still good, but the design behind the enchantment is what I'm really upset about. Is it weaker? Yes. The devs have made it very clear that they have weakened it and I have even done the math to show how the damage on hammer from the enchantment has been reduced from several thousand to a few hundred. I don't know why you think I would be in denial when I have clearly stated the numbers behind it and I certainly don't appreciate you trying to delegitimize my arguments by trying to sum it up as denial.

[Niph]

Back to the topic of this post.


I just completed all Halloween quests, and I think the new quests are fun. As well as the party room in the Casino. All very well done.


I didn't notice much improvement in my AH pet DPS, but it's hard to tell without measuring precisely, and I don't have a reference to compare to anymore. The whole dangerous weapon drama will probably fade away when people realize they keep breaking their weapon or have to stick to low-damage ones.

[Yaffy]

The whole dangerous weapon drama will probably fade away when people realize they keep breaking their weapon or have to stick to low-damage ones.

That's where the frustration will only increase, not decrease. I already have a +300 damage weapon and so do a few other players, which improves my Damage/DPS greatly over everyone else. If you want to match up, you'll need to go through the RNG roulette until you get that +300 damage weapon, assuming your class even has one. +300 damage on a weapon is a 230 DPS increase assuming you only use attacks from that skill, while most builds have sustained DPS around 1-1.5k. Knife can even have +600 damage due to dual wielding dangerous weapons.

You could just say "Well the game is PvE, it's not a competition", but it's the same logic with other classes being overpowered. If Bard was overpowered and needed a nerf in order to get in line with other classes, then dangerous weapons are essentially the same thing, except you need to go through the RNG gate first. In this case even if the upgrade was available to all classes, then you would be barred from making a "Good" DPS build until you got lucky.

Keep in mind that the devs have stated a few months ago that they wanted to nerf damage across the board, and that it still hasn't happened yet. If they reduce damage multipliers on skills (Which they have stated seems to be their main target) then +300 simple damage is going to make an even larger impact.

[Celerity]

Finished the halloween quests yesterday and I have to say I'm very impressed.
Loved finding anhinda's secret room in gk and there was a lot of great new recipes to collect as well.

Keep up the good work!

[Delfin]

I haven't tested new weapons recipes enough but I understand what Yaffy says and I agree totally with his concerns. We need a deeper end game damage system which no depends a lot on rng. About Halloween I don't like it. Therefore, I have done very few of the quests. I would love that time spent on holidays to be spent improving actual content. However, New invasion system performed by Jack is very interesting. All in all I still have to say thank you for all your efforts!

[Kway]

Has anyone located this “secret” entrance to Gaz Keep? And if so where in the Keep does it lead?

[Niph]

The locked entrance is outside the red building in the orc city, near the southern entrance, and leads to a rug near Melandria. To unlock it, you must activate the rug from inside. Then it's fully unlocked, as far as I know (I didn't go back recently).

[Daguin]

Halloween quests are so much fun this year...Thanks for all the hard work! Really happy about the back entrance to GK, and the AOE loot-lock adjustment too.

[Citan]

Some notes about the new recipes:

Yaffy - I did see your post about the new recipes and, obviously, I disagree with your assessment. It sounds like you will never be happy with anything that might destroy a weapon. That's fine. I understand that concern -- we've had this discussion with players before during alpha, and my takeaway was that I should make certain that you don't NEED to risk your equipment to be successful. And that will remain true: you will always be able to have really amazing builds without risking your gear, even at max level. But there will be many ways to alter gear. Dozens of ways, eventually.

These recipes are intended for about level 30-40ish players. That's obvious, right? It's in the level 40 city and has relatively easy prereqs. Yes, you can use them on high-level weapons, but you certainly don't NEED to "dangerously improve" a weapon to have a successful high-level build. In fact, players at level 70 could ALREADY be really, really overpowered. As in: soloing elites, often soloing bosses... very overpowered. Too overpowered? Yes, but not as overpowered as it seems at first glance... because those gear sets are insane! Getting 50 treasure mods that synergize takes a lot of time and work. Shouldn't it be kind of broken? It should! The exact amount of overpowered is a question we'll have to figure out, but I'm not trying to balance the game around players having perfect gear at level 70. You can get that, and it's cool, and I want you to feel like a badass for all the work you did. I do not, however, have any personal need to let you have "the best possible" gear. If the argument is that you just want to have the absolute very best stuff and it's too hard now... I don't care. But if players feel like they NEED to dangerously improve high-level weapons, that's wrong and I'll fix it. Right now, certainly, they don't.

The new city (the casino) is for level 40s, because that's where we lose players. Somewhere after the 30s, but before the 50s, players get exhausted. There aren't (weren't) enough goalposts, so the goals feel too distant and the game feels too grindy. So the casino is a hub for new kinds of goals. Those earlier goals (like running GK, or learning Battle Chemistry, or whatever thing they're working on) are still there, and I don't want to take away from them. But there need to be lots of new goals, new ways to improve, new things to do.

This being a casino, it's obvious that there should be some high-risk, high-reward techniques. Again, getting the exact numbers right will take time. But I think I'm right that this is where a risky technique should fit into the game, and I'm pretty sure I can make it work. (Eventually.)

Players in this level range tend to have several weapons they've been holding on to, but none of them are very good. Adding 100 simple damage to one might make it last another 10 levels, though, and if they get one to +300 and end up feeling overpowered for a few levels, GREAT, I love that. They worked hard and they should feel overpowered for a while.

But just to be clear: in the final game, I can't imagine anyone with legendary level 70 gear risking it in one of these recipes, because why in the everliving FUCK would they do that? That's a terrible risk for tiny reward. Keep in mind these players will probably only have one or two legendaries at that level at most, since they won't be staying at level 70 terribly long. I don't currently see a situation happening at level 70 that's comparable to what level 35 players are experiencing. But if I'm wrong and these recipes end up seeming "mandatory" at higher level, I'll limit the recipes further until they aren't. Surely by level 120 a recipe that "adds 2 simple damage with a 3% chance to destroy your weapon" is a terrible, terrible deal. There will be other better ways to enhance top-end gear.

I still need to tweak these recipes more in the future; I'm still trying to figure out the right risk/reward, and what sorts of limitations they should have. They use a new type of damage so that I can organize the calculations in different ways as needed. When I'm happier with how they work I'll add versions for more skills, but right now it's nice to keep it contained a bit.

(Edited to add: I might add one or two more recipes soon in order to get more data and feedback coming in. Not a lot of people are testing the Knife one, which is the one I'm most worried about, balance-wise, because you can dual-wield knives and double stack the simple damage.)

[Yaffy]

These recipes are intended for about level 30-40ish players.


I don't know how much you'd take my word for it, but I certainly believe that these upgrades are noticeably useful even at level 70, and will continue to be useful past level 70 (Although less so of course). If there are still plans for a widespread damage nerf, then the dangerous enchantment will certainly be much stronger.

From one of my earlier posts, I stated that end game DPS builds with perfect gear tend to have a sustained DPS around 1k to 1.5k dps with perfect gear. Now for the most part DPS isn't a humongous deal because many players simply burst down what they kill, but assuming you want to stray away from a burst game meta or you're talking about much tougher enemies, then dangerous enchantments can easily add around 200+ DPS on sword/hammer or 400+ on knife. Potentially more for some more gimmicky builds.

That's a massive boost to a perfect end game build, and it's going to be even more noticeable with cruddily thrown together builds. A +300 simple damage boost is much more powerful than almost any single end game mod for damage. You can compare it for example to a level 70 boost to base damage since it applies to all attacks in the same way. I would argue +300 simple damage is somewhere around the power of 80% base damage at worst, and that's only if your build is based around high base damage skills with long cooldowns. For knife it can potentially be as strong as around 400% bonus base damage.

Because of that I seriously disagree with your comment on it being "A terrible risk for a tiny reward". The reward is so good that you don't need to actually take any risk at all. Currently the property is still strong enough that you can take a bunch of junky weapons enmasse, upgrade them until you get a +300 weapon, and it will be much better than a maxed out level 70 yellow. On my hammer build I have a cruddy level 50, 3 mod weapon with +300 simple damage and it's stronger than my max enchanted level 70 yellow club. For my knife build I have a level 30 dirk with only +100 damage and it's boosting my damage more than my old level 70 modded off hand because of how much knife can benefit. I will simply hang onto this dirk until I upgrade another dirk to a higher value and then switch until I have +300. Yes it would be even better if it was on a level 70 yellow, but right now I can simply rush for a +300 weapon on a piece of trash because it's so much better than level 70 mods, and then I can potentially work on level 70 items.



There will be other better ways to enhance top-end gear.


This is another issue I have with dangerous enchantments though. Aside from the tedium of going through a bunch of weapons until you hit +300, there is no downside to having +300 damage on your weapon. Even if you add another upgrade system why wouldn't you want to use both that upgrade AND dangerous enchantments on it? To me what this means I'll do is that I'll avoid any cool upgrade system you might have planned until I have a +300 damage weapon, and THEN I'll go onto whatever end game enchantment system you have planned, because doing it the other way around would be incredibly risky. If you want to prevent something like dangerous enchantments from getting in the way of any new upgrade system, you'd have to make them incompatible.



The new city (the casino) is for level 40s, because that's where we lose players. Somewhere after the 30s, but before the 50s, players get exhausted. There aren't (weren't) enough goalposts, so the goals feel too distant and the game feels too grindy. So the casino is a hub for new kinds of goals. Those earlier goals (like running GK, or learning Battle Chemistry, or whatever thing they're working on) are still there, and I don't want to take away from them. But there need to be lots of new goals, new ways to improve, new things to do.

This being a casino, it's obvious that there should be some high-risk, high-reward techniques. Again, getting the exact numbers right will take time. But I think I'm right that this is where a risky technique should fit into the game, and I'm pretty sure I can make it work. (Eventually.)


Now you already know I don't find the idea of risking my weapons and materials very fun, but I don't believe dangerous enchantments are a good goal to keep level 40 players engaged. The issue with dangerous weapons is that it isn't a very clear goal or upgrade at all, and even in these threads there are high level players that have taken a look at it and think the success rate is too low (Even when they get the math wrong and overestimate!). If a level 70 player thinks it's too much effort, why would a level 40 player think it's worth doing?

I've stated that I know how valuable the enchantment is, but I don't think many level 40 players will look at the dangerous enchantments and think it's worth putting time into until they have a much better source of income based on the other player reactions in this thread. Many players don't realize that just getting something like +50 damage, which is much more probable, is already a big boost and only think of how hard it is to cap out. Combine that with the fact that level 40 players are probably trying to save any penny they can for the cost to uncap their skills and I don't think level 40 players will be open to using this upgrade system at all.

If you want a RNG upgrade system to thematically fit the casino, I think you could certainly make it a lot more fun than just a simple recipe to add +2 damage on a weapon. You could have a game/machine in the casino for the sole purpose of upgrading gear which consumes red wing tokens to use, and it could apply a mod on your gear which could be anything from a horrible negative effect to a great positive effect, or even just plain silly effects. Using the machine more than once would replace the old upgrade with whatever new one you got. Not only would lower level players be much more willing to try it out, but it would encourage people to play more casino games, fit the casino a lot more thematically and most importantly be much more fun.

I don't know if this is really the proper time to suggest an alternative, but I think there's a lot of room for a much more interesting upgrade system based off of a casino than just a blacksmithing recipe with a fixed bonus and a break chance.

[Citan]

I don't think it's too late for new ideas here, but I do want to make use of low-mid tier metal ingots, because they're relatively unused and will basically always be relatively unused. (Actual metal-armor-smithing is a level 80 thing, so while it'll be possible to hammer up some level 40 platemail, it's unlikely to happen often.)

So if people have ideas for other ways to "dangerously" (riskily) augment gear, using metal ingots (possibly among other things), that they think will work better for the target level range, please share!

[Niph]

It takes 5 attempts on average to improve a weapon with +50 without breaking it. I can see myself looting 5 legendary swords with the proper proportion of mods, improve one to +50 and then transmute mods for the perfect combo. However that's a tiny reward (for low risk, just going into GK regularly).

If I want the +300, I must loot 96 legendary swords on average. It's not going to happen. So I must put the limit somewhere, I must decide what the max improvement I'll try. Based on my expectations of how many legendary swords I can hope to get.

If dangerously improving a weapon will be replaced by something else at higher levels then it makes sense now. In fact, it could be balanced again to make it more favorable to players, or they might not bother (in their 40's).

If it can stack with other means of improvement even at high level, that could be a problem. Because, yeah, farming the top level dungeon for legendary swords to break, hmm, I could do that. :)

[Yaffy]

I don't think it's too late for new ideas here, but I do want to make use of low-mid tier metal ingots, because they're relatively unused and will basically always be relatively unused. (Actual metal-armor-smithing is a level 80 thing, so while it'll be possible to hammer up some level 40 platemail, it's unlikely to happen often.)

So if people have ideas for other ways to "dangerously" (riskily) augment gear, using metal ingots (possibly among other things), that they think will work better for the target level range, please share!

If you want to make use of low-mid tier metal ingots in a risky way that's appropriate for lower level players, I think the best way of doing it would be to tone down the scale of the upgrade. Right now the current dangerous enchantment feels too crazy because it goes all the way up to +300 damage, so many people have the impression they will need to use a humongous amount of metal slabs and weapons to get anywhere and don't even bother, and it's also why the enchantment can scale ridiculously up to level 70. Just by looking at it people know that because of the break chance and the cap it's a big investment.

If you want to keep things as a blacksmithing recipe, I think a much better way of doing it is to have a recipe for weapons/armor that doesn't stack, but has a very unpredictable result.

For example, you could have "Unpredictable simple enchantment", which costs 1 simple metal slab, and can be applied to weapons or armor. On use, it has a very wide variety of effects it can apply to the item. For example, if you used it on a sword, it could give you:

Anywhere from -10 sword damage to +10 sword damage
Anywhere from -2 power cost of sword attacks to +2 power cost of sword attacks
Anywhere from -10 health to +10 health

Those are just some examples, but you could have a very wide variety of effects so there's a lot of room for interesting ideas. You could just go with simple stats like base modifiers to health/power/damage that already exist on items, but you could also throw in some "Rare" effects which could be like a big jackpot. Ex. All sword attacks heal you for +5 health on hit. If you use the upgrade on an item which already has a modifier, it will replace the old modifier with a new one.

Higher level variants of the upgrade would have much more dramatic effects, so for example using the basic slab version would increase the range of the bonuses, both positively and negatively. So for example the sword damage roll that used to be from -10 to +10 could become -15 to +15, the good quality slab could be -20 to +20, etc.

I think an upgrade system like this is a lot more interesting and more accessible for lower level players. It wouldn't have the huge investment scare that the current dangerous enchantment has, and players can decide on whether they just want to get any sort of good enchantment, or maybe they want to keep upgrading until they get something really good. It would definitely be a great "Slab sink" for players to dump their lower level metal slabs into, especially if there are some really neat modifiers added to the pool. Players could customize their builds further with this upgrade (Ex. A player building DPS wants + damage, while a tank wants to roll for elemental resistance) which adds to the depth of build customization as well as giving players a reason to collect lots of slabs if they want specific bonuses.

Not only that, but since the limits of the upgrade is based on a cap based on the quality of the slab, the strength of the upgrades could easily be balanced for certain level ranges. Expert slab upgrades would be appropriate for level 40 players, while astounding metal slabs would be appropriate for level 80 players. This would make it much easier to balance than the current dangerous enchantment.

This kind of upgrade/gear system in games typically doesn't go with negative numbers, but if you want to make the upgrade "Risky" then you can have negatives if you want to have that kind of scare associated with it. Even if the modifiers were only positive, it can already be risky. It can be very risky if you have a +40 sword damage enchant that you want to be +50, but it could reroll into +1 sword damage! But if you want to really have critical failures then negative modifiers can be added, just to hear the tormented screams of gamblers in global chat.

[Delfin]

Wow Yaffy's idea is amazing and it surely would be a lvl 40 goal. On the contrary, current recipes don't look like a lvl 40 gear. Just be on their shoes, you barely have surveying high enough at lvl 40 to be spending metal slabs into a risky recipe. Not to speak that most councils around that level are invested into upgrading your skills. I have to say that Citan is doing a great job cause he is participating actively in forums 'listening' players concerns. Therefore, I want to give my opinion about the players leaving around those levels. Although game isn't designed to be handholding, I have encountered many players around 30s that don't even know where Kur or Eltibule or Sun Vale are. Why don't you try to add more signs into the game like Transit signals. So from start people now that serbule isn't all and there are many more interesting places to go. There are other things like better explanations about crafting since crafting isn't seem a goal until lol 50. I'm no trying to make the game more easy but accesible. Thanks for your time.

[Taei]

Recently I gave some advice about gearing up in the current state of the game. There is (still) a gear drop void between 30-50 it seems as I've asked a few new players who ended up grinding goblin dungeon and were close to 50 while still wearing 35 gear. This problem has been around since I started playing 2-3 years ago.

I was asked when is a good time to start crafting and modding gear. My answer was around 60 (in the current game), this is because leveling from 40-60 is still not that difficult and there isn't content in the game that really requires level 40s to build nicer gear.

So this makes me question the whole concept of level 40s gambling on weapons that can break because what I would tell these level 40s is to just get to level 50 and get a level 50 weapon instead, why waste the time trying to build their level 40-45 weapons (assuming they even have these, because most people still get 35ish gear) when they can just tough it out and wait for level 50-60 weapons instead?

I personally have no issue with risking a weapon that can break in order to make it more powerful, I think my only criticism would be that it requires too many crafts. I think it should just be simplified down. I'll use an example from Final Fantasy 1.0 (no the 2.0 trash right now)

in FF14 1.0, you can add "mods" to a piece of gear. The chance of adding goes like this:

1st: 100% chance
2nd: 35-50% chance (depends on the power of the mod)
3rd: 15% chance
4th: 5% chance
5th: 1-2% chance (I actually got one to go through)

The item can break any time along this path of improvment, you lose both the item and the mod(materia in this case)

I found this system kind of fun and I think it's simple enough to understand for most people. It was definitely not necessary to get beyond 3 mods to do endgame. 2 mods was probably expected.

So my advice would be to lower the amount of times you upgrade these weapons, but increase their chance of breaking as you gamble higher, but maybe the first 1-2 upgrades have a higher chance of happening.

[INXS]

Yeah huge bummer your weapon breaks as you adding the last +2, fail at the 150th time, stuff like that would send people raging.

[Crissa]

It's not that it might destroy a weapon: It's because random chance on enchantment is is a bad mechanic which penalizes anyone who doesn't have the time to grind. It's a grind at the end of a grind. It's bad. It doesn't incentivize being crafty or clever, it just emphasizes grind.

[NickzMagic]

So a lot of new posts, thanks Citan.

I want to just say that I am in the 'likes dangerous upgrades' camp and people that don't want to get +300 damage can instead spend a lot less effort to just get to +100, or just not at all - I was being out damaged with a +300 hammer by someone using skills that don't have a dangerous recipe today.

I also strongly agree with once the level cap is 100+ level 70's will not be spending literally days to get a +300 damage level 70 weapon when they could instead get to level 90 in those days.



So if people have ideas for other ways to "dangerously" (riskily) augment gear, using metal ingots (possibly among other things), that they think will work better for the target level range, please share!

I quite liked Yaffy's idea of upgrades that add random positive or negative effects, more stuff that's simply unique(think adding fire shield potion effect to some armor or adding a chance to ignite target to any weapon) or some enhancements with drawbacks(+x% elemental damage, receive y% more damage from all elemental attacks would be a bit more interesting than the current +5.6% fire damage you can get from tailoring recipes)





Even if you add another upgrade system why wouldn't you want to use both that upgrade AND dangerous enchantments on it? To me what this means I'll do is that I'll avoid any cool upgrade system you might have planned until I have a +300 damage weapon


I think Citans point is that if you do that, good job. You now have a better weapon than anyone else in return for your great effort. Currently it is a problem because if you do that you get so far ahead(well, with the recent nerfs it doesn't even feel as such already - I'm hitting for 2k with a +300 hammer and people using fire/psy hit for that or more) - Having best in slot gear seems to be the 'norm' on MMORPG's now but I don't think it's something that should be the norm or maybe even realistically possible in every MMO. If getting best in slot is going to take you forever and be frustrating then that's fine, you don't need best in slot to be readily available to all players.

[spider91301]

Some notes about the new recipes:

But just to be clear: in the final game, I can't imagine anyone with legendary level 70 gear risking it in one of these recipes, because why in the everliving FUCK would they do that? That's a terrible risk for tiny reward. Keep in mind these players will probably only have one or two legendaries at that level at most, since they won't be staying at level 70 terribly long. I don't currently see a situation happening at level 70 that's comparable to what level 35 players are experiencing. But if I'm wrong and these recipes end up seeming "mandatory" at higher level, I'll limit the recipes further until they aren't. Surely by level 120 a recipe that "adds 2 simple damage with a 3% chance to destroy your weapon" is a terrible, terrible deal. There will be other better ways to enhance top-end gear.

I still need to tweak these recipes more in the future; I'm still trying to figure out the right risk/reward, and what sorts of limitations they should have. They use a new type of damage so that I can organize the calculations in different ways as needed. When I'm happier with how they work I'll add versions for more skills, but right now it's nice to keep it contained a bit.

(Edited to add: I might add one or two more recipes soon in order to get more data and feedback coming in. Not a lot of people are testing the Knife one, which is the one I'm most worried about, balance-wise, because you can dual-wield knives and double stack the simple damage.)

I mean for the a level 120 sword anything endgame that gives me even the slightest amount of edge over the average joe especially so when weapon smithing comes out will be very appreciated, all I would have to do is just spam craft weapons and try over and over, besides compared to other skills sword is lack luster in burst damage with calligraphy and not all the potions and other crap I only do 2.8k

But on a side note on how to make lower level metal slabs usefull make it so when armor smithing comes out you would lower level slabs to craft armor stakes that would be used in high level gear, say you want a level 60 metal chestplate you will need lower level slabs for the stakes on top of masterwork metal slabs in the required materials list or something along those lines not all stakes corresponding the level will be needed for the same tier armor for example a level 60 chestplate will take a level 50 armor stake which you will need expert metal slabs to make on top of masterwork slabs


Ps. Considering I want to make my own metal armor set fully maxed out I'm probably shooting myself in the foot for this idea but I would rather be productive and give actually good ideas to fix the problem