Multi-boxing/multi-account activty

[cratoh]

Hi there,

I was hoping one of the team could clear up the stance on what is, and is not allowed with regards to multiboxing, or using/owning more than 1 account of PG.

I've been gaming for a good few years I suppose now, and one of the most rewarding and fun games I played was Everquest 2. I started on Lucan D'Lere server and had a blast grouping and crafting and whatnot. I was playing in UK time on a mainly US server though and it got quiet when I was on. So I bought a second account to make a healer on, and over time I got quite good at screen-switching and dropping a heal or buff or 2 on my main character. Later I added a bard, purely as a buff character. EQ2 had /follow feature which obviously made getting around easier. For off times, when no one was about, or no one wanted to do the same areas, I could just about muddle through elite content with this set up. Ofc when I could get in a full group and play I would do that as well. It was quite interesting as I contacted CS at eq2 regarding whether or not it was against EULA as there was some resistance from a few vocal players about dual boxing, and was assured it was absolutely up to me how many accounts I had/used as long as there was no automation.

After some chat in game today, and on other occasions in the past in PG, I hope you could clarify what is and isn't acceptable in this game?

One of the great misconceptions about dual boxing seems to be the 'gold farmer' slur, and that it is somehow giving an advantage. It actually is quite hard to do manually and requires a greater outlay on gear and so forth, and - is simply never as effective as a good group, so therefore not something to worry about I would have thought.

I did chat with Srand, as part of a greater conversation with other players as well about mules, storage and multi-boxing and was sure she had said multi-boxing was fine but I may be mistaken.

So, yeah - before I go and buy a loyalty package on a second account, could I get an answer, thank you.

Finbarr.

[kell.shepherd]

More importantly.. where do the devs stand on beat-boxing?

[cratoh]

I don't know where they stand on beat boxing, maybe it will be the 7th instrument, but would be nice to know about dual boxing.

[Citan]

The very honest answer is we haven't decided yet whether multiboxing will be allowed in the final game. But I am leaning towards not allowing it. In games where multiboxing is actually hard, it's not much of a problem, but when it's easy, it creates a lot of envy and anger from other players, and I don't need that. And would it be hard here? Probably not. When I add features like auto-follow, and when you've found powerful "hands-off" support builds (a battle chemistry/mentalism combo comes to mind), it's a pretty dramatic increase in power for little effort, and it's something that has historically pissed other players off.

Yeah, I can tweak the game to make multiboxing harder and more "fair", but I don't want to have to think "wait, what does this design decision mean for multi-boxers?" every time I make a change.

On the other hand, when a game is older and I'm making an alt, it IS fun to multibox. I multiboxed WoW and enjoyed it. But that was after it'd been out for five years and other players didn't care nearly as much if I was power-leveling an alt. So if history is any evidence, we'll similarly worry less about this as time progresses.

In the very short term (like today), it's fine. You can multibox during the alpha, at least until further notice. But since no launch decisions have been made, I wouldn't pay for an extra account if you only want to use it to multibox!

[kell.shepherd]

Can't help but notice you completely sidestepped the beatboxing issue. Playing it safe.. I like it. Don't want to rustle any jimmies out there.

[Spiritfingers]

Can't help but notice you completely sidestepped the beatboxing issue. Playing it safe.. I like it. Don't want to rustle any jimmies out there.

Ok, if beat boxing is added, Citan needs to add break dancing as well.

[kell.shepherd]

Ok, if beat boxing is added, Citan needs to add break dancing as well.

See, this is how games get made better. If we're going to have break-dancing then we need dance battles as a pvp option. "MrWhiskers challenges you to a dance battle, do you accept?"

[cratoh]

The very honest answer is we haven't decided yet whether multiboxing will be allowed in the final game. But I am leaning towards not allowing it. In games where multiboxing is actually hard, it's not much of a problem, but when it's easy, it creates a lot of envy and anger from other players, and I don't need that. And would it be hard here? Probably not. When I add features like auto-follow, and when you've found powerful "hands-off" support builds (a battle chemistry/mentalism combo comes to mind), it's a pretty dramatic increase in power for little effort, and it's something that has historically pissed other players off.

Yeah, I can tweak the game to make multiboxing harder and more "fair", but I don't want to have to think "wait, what does this design decision mean for multi-boxers?" every time I make a change.

On the other hand, when a game is older and I'm making an alt, it IS fun to multibox. I multiboxed WoW and enjoyed it. But that was after it'd been out for five years and other players didn't care nearly as much if I was power-leveling an alt. So if history is any evidence, we'll similarly worry less about this as time progresses.

In the very short term (like today), it's fine. You can multibox during the alpha, at least until further notice. But since no launch decisions have been made, I wouldn't pay for an extra account if you only want to use it to multibox!



Hi Citan, thanks for the reply.

I know a lot of us have second accounts (and more) for storage and to trade items more easily, and for hoarding. I'm glad that we are able to multi box at the moment as it can be hard to find people to group with at certain times of day. I for one really hope that you do allow multiboxing at launch, it is a play style that does appeal to a lot of people, generally that stay fairly quiet because of a bit of discrimination really from people who see it as a form of cheating, whereas I think it merely a play style choice ( but won't get into that here). Combat boxing is pretty hard at the moment on account of no auto follow, which leads to all sorts of issues with giving oneself a headache trying to get a toon to a position; or not building up endurance because not soloing an therefore taking hits etc.

I guess like everyone else, I had a favourite game experience, which was EQ2, where sometimes a couple of us would multibox content in groups together in slacks times and what not. Some games offer mercenary NPCs which sort of act like boxes as well. I don't really see that multiboxing would be that much of a game breaker here in the sense that it would let people steamroll content on their own so to speak, simply from the way that things level like endurance, and the fact that due to multi skill feature anyone can power level themselves quite easily with a skill already maxed.

As for worrying about how design decisions effect multiboxers, in terms of content at least, then that isn't something to really consider at all, as PG is set up for individuals to solo, or occasionally group. If people choose to box, they get the ups as well as the downs!

You says 'I wouldn't pay for an extra account if you only use it to multibox' is this to be read that you could buy an extra accoun tto use as a mule account, possibly to multibox later if allowed?

Thanks,

Finbarr

[Khaylara]

I know it's been answered but I heard some people were banned for multiboxing to loot elites (during a Halloween event). I don't know if that's accurate but I'd like to throw out there why I think Citan shouldn't allow it (even in the current stage).

-telling people it's allowed now and at some point telling them to stop doing it will cause massive problems. Players would be like "But you told us it's allowed" . It's going to be very hard to punish someone who drags 2 chars through a dungeon and loots chests on 2 chars or more.
-it can be used to level alts w/o actually playing them, just add them to group and keep them there to get exp. Voila, an alt that can be maxed w/o being actually played.
-it can be used to bypass vendor limitations
-it can be used to loot an elite twice (at least)
-it can be used to loot chests twice (or more)

To me all of the above sound like exploits and again, not punishable since it was clearly stated it's allowed. Mules....maybe but it should be limited to that. Me as a player have a problem with multiboxing. It's a way to make much more extra cash and considering there's gonna be no wipe extra cash counts towards skills. I also think it's going to be affecting data and feedback. It's going down a rabbit hole where if a player exploits an event on alts you have no right to punish them. Or you can of course but it will look abusive since that would contradict the "It's allowed for now" statement.
When quite a few people were banned for repeatedly looting chests...what was the response? You told us it's fine as long as we report it. And I can vouch that was true (looted a crapload of stuff in goblin annex while the mobs were bugged). It did feel like double standards in that case and that's why many thought it was an unfair ban. Because it wasn't clearly stated.


PS I already saw some (top) players dragging alts through dungeons and Kur and as a player myself I don't think it fair.
PPS I understand you expect everyone to be respectful and use common sense. My common sense says multiboxing for cash gain is an exploit and should be stated clearly what is allowed and what is not or these blurred lines will cause a lot of issues.

[Spiritfingers]

I know it's been answered but I heard some people were banned for multiboxing to loot elites (during a Halloween event). I don't know if that's accurate but I'd like to throw out there why I think Citan shouldn't allow it (even in the current stage).

-telling people it's allowed now and at some point telling them to stop doing it will cause massive problems. Players would be like "But you told us it's allowed" . It's going to be very hard to punish someone who drags 2 chars through a dungeon and loots chests on 2 chars or more.
-it can be used to level alts w/o actually playing them, just add them to group and keep them there to get exp. Voila, an alt that can be maxed w/o being actually played.
-it can be used to bypass vendor limitations
-it can be used to loot an elite twice (at least)
-it can be used to loot chests twice (or more)

To me all of the above sound like exploits and again, not punishable since it was clearly stated it's allowed. Mules....maybe but it should be limited to that. Me as a player have a problem with multiboxing. It's a way to make much more extra cash and considering there's gonna be no wipe extra cash counts towards skills. I also think it's going to be affecting data and feedback. It's going down a rabbit hole where if a player exploits an event on alts you have no right to punish them. Or you can of course but it will look abusive since that would contradict the "It's allowed for now" statement.
When quite a few people were banned for repeatedly looting chests...what was the response? You told us it's fine as long as we report it. And I can vouch that was true (looted a crapload of stuff in goblin annex while the mobs were bugged). It did feel like double standards in that case and that's why many thought it was an unfair ban. Because it wasn't clearly stated.


PS I already saw some (top) players dragging alts through dungeons and Kur and as a player myself I don't think it fair.
PPS I understand you expect everyone to be respectful and use common sense. My common sense says multiboxing for cash gain is an exploit and should be stated clearly what is allowed and what is not or these blurred lines will cause a lot of issues.

This is a scary concept. I hadn't considered the impact on other players muliboxing creates. What's even more scary is I have no clue which players online are alts. You are the only person I know the alt to.

[Khaylara]

...which is never online in the same time with my other chars:)

[cratoh]

Khay, due respect and everything but you are one of the people who heavily argued against my saying that a total wipe was needed for launch to create parity among players. Your reason was that there was nothing competitive in Project:Gorgon, so by your own admission whether someone dual boxes or not has no bearing, as it is not competitive.

As I already mentioned, it is quite hard to 2-or-more-box anyway, and plus you have additional characters to develop gear and skills wise.

Why do you think it is unfair for people to play moire than one character? Is it just a gut feeling, or has some basis? Because if the argument is cash, then its not really applicable as boxing is clumsy at best in PG and not the most efficient way to farm.

Also, Citan has said simply - In the very short term (like today), it's fine. You can multibox during the alpha, at least until further notice. But since no launch decisions have been made, I wouldn't pay for an extra account if you only want to use it to multibox! which is pretty obvious and wouldn't create problems down the line if he decided to say, no boxing (which would be disappointing).

How do you think it is going to be effecting data and feedback?

I think they key point is simply that unaided multiboxing is not damaging or detrimental. It entertains people that enjoy that kind of thing, and also have less chance to group cos not on at peak time. It is not actually the amazing 'jackpot winner takes all' that people who don't do it seem to think it is. It's hard, ineffective, clumsy and time consuming.

The key thing is that automation is, and always will be I hope, against the ToS and not allowed. That is when Multiboxing IS a problem, when it is helped with 3rd party software and made ultra efficient.

Also - what has the chest bug got to do with multiboxing, I didn't understand why you brought that up?

Cheers,

Finbarrrrrrggghhh

[Khaylara]

I brought that particular ban wave up because many people who were banned for doing it invoked "Eric said it was okay as long as we reported it". And you know that is true, we were allowed to exploit some things if they were not fixed for a while (ie dungeons with non aggro mobs). Apparently the people who exploited the chests crossed a line that existed in Citan's mind but was not clearly stated.

Second, I do play more than one character myself but NOT IN THE SAME TIME. I caps-ed to underline the difference between playing alts and multiboxing.

Third...yes, I don't want a wipe at launch but I also don't want to compete with players who make cash multiboxing. It's an unfair advantage and in all honesty if that's what's gonna happen I don't wanna be around. It's plain unfair. So I don't understand how that contradicts any previous statement.

Fourth-playing 2 chars simultaneously is actually easy, especially when we're gonna have autofollow. About not being able to find groups...till recently I was playing in a dead timezone so I 've spent most of my game time soloing. That does not mean that I should've been allowed to multibox, does it??!


Anyway not gonna debate with you on this topic, I hate bots and people who drag buffers and healers along in groups. If you guys are gonna go down that way (some are already anyway, at least you asked) I'm out. Don't wanna play with bots.

I really hope Citan revisits this decision.

[Silvonis]

Just to be clear, it's still a violation of the Terms of Service to use automation software or programs to assist with multiboxing activities.

[Silvonis]

Another point of clarification: If you find an exploit/bug, you need to report it immediately and then cease taking advantage of that exploit/bug.

[Greyfyn]

So now that we have a current dev statement allowing multiboxing, it does change the direction of how the game was going. Yes, people had alts on at the same time. But you didn't have anything that looked exploity (for lack of a better word). Now you have what looks like player mobs running together, which could be friends, but sometimes really look like bots. Your caves and dungeons don't have the capacity for multiple groups of this type AND solo players. It's a logistics concern, which is why players get ornery about it.

And then there is the apparent contradiction of past statements--we all know the stories about people who got banned for something along these lines. While it might be a way to provide new players with an environment closer to the game they came from, it kinda makes Gorgon look like just another MMO, where things are easy because people like easy. PG was different....

Finally, with the smaller population Gorgon had until recently, most areas have not been overwhelmed. But now areas have been fairly wiped clean. With the addition of multiboxing players, that population density increases without actually increasing the player base. The increased competition favors the multiboxer. Economically, this creates situations where the disparity between players inevitably creates strife.

Sure, let people play the way they want to. But creating parameters in policy now would help players have reasonable expectations about Project: Gorgon game play. Allowing wide open multiboxing--is going to make the players who don't like that style of play disappear from game.

[Khaylara]

Just to be clear, it's still a violation of the Terms of Service to use automation software or programs to assist with multiboxing activities.

Say I drag an alt through crypt, loot chests, use the items I get to increase that alt's favor with vendors and give that alt my high level drops to sell when my main runs out of vendors for the week. Or picture a party made of 4 OP players and their alts moving through Lab and double looting. It is possible and using only 2 chars is easy.

Do you think these scenarios are okay? No macros involved, just the 2 scenarios I mentioned (I bet I can do that easily even on a single monitor).

According to Citan it's okay, to me it sounds like a solid exploit and I really don't wanna play under such terms. Fairly sure many others feel that way and it was really disappointing to see Fin actually posting about it and Citan being so matter of factly about something that can turn the game into a shitstorm.

And about macros...I insisted that a player was using macros, I went and checked thoroughly, asked others to check, it was as obvious as daylight (crappy macro too, his char was constantly getting stuck). Yet, his defense was "I didn't want to talk to you so I didn't answer" which apparently applied to all the 8-10 people who confirmed his char was obviously set on macros. In this case how are you planning to detect who is using automation software and who isn't? Unless you constantly check logs or go through the wave of reports you're gonna get. Isn't it a headache and shouldn't we be told it's not okay to multibox except mules as it was till now?

Grefyn is probably right and you are trying to cater to the new wave of players coming from AC and Ac2 but think what effect that will have in the long run. Besides people like me who hate "altitis" and multiboxing, look at the picture Grey is painting. Hardly enough resources for legit players, add some bots (or alts on autofollow) to the situation and...


PS It's easier to prevent than to punish, just saying

[Khaylara]

Sorry about the double post but this is not actually adressed to Silvonis but to Fin. I know 2 chars (possible the same person) that are botting. Yes, they were for sure, nice setup next to Hogan's keep, chars on top of each other, killing with the same spells sequence, looting, not burying. Also conveniently done during off-peak hours when no admin is online. As soon as srand talked on Global they logged off. I tried asking them to bury mobs, I adressed them by name, I whispered and talked to them in both Nearby and Global. They don't have me on ignore, I talked to them even today so that excuse is not valid.
Those 2 chars advanced in a month like others in a year. Darn fairytale. How do you feel about that? Someone decked 2 chars in max gear, they're running mants, Lab etc, all in about a month. They will be your equal in terms of skills and level when alpha ends.

[Grobyddonot]

Sorry about the double post but this is not actually adressed to Silvonis but to Fin. I know 2 chars (possible the same person) that are botting.

I have a semi-serious question for you. What were you expecting? You really thought that no one ever will use/try to use bots in PG? No one will ever try to automate whatever? It's not about grind either. Truth is, any online game I have ever played had bots, macros, etc... I guess you can say it's human nature to get everything by doing nothing or as little as possible. Is It good? No, absolutely not. But, sadly, it's the reality.

It also starts small, imo, with stuff like when you have to fill 150-200 empty bottles with the water (multiple times) or when you have to make over 600+ leather rolls by clicking... What do you do? Right, auto-clicker with a somehow decent delay and you go for a cold drink or to make a cup of hot tea or for a cigarette break. (I've never done that, but every time I have 6 stacks of skins I have to turn into rolls I think about it).

On the topic of multiboxing, I'm against it. Quite a basic example: Whenever I find/make an item in 10 seconds, one item, multiboxer finds/makes 2-infinite amount of items in 10 seconds. In a game, based on the grind and random rolls on loot (amount and the combination of mods), it's just ridiculous. Automated, not automated, IDC. This is just wrong. On top of that, there is a thing like Industry in this game. Let's say I easily make 300k/month with them. A player with 5 accounts will do 1.5mil in the same month. Not really sure I want to play a game like that. (true you can raise Industry and make WO's with other characters on your account. but go transfer all those wos and items for them using a 8-item-box and constant relogging. much easier and faster to trade - right click - ok - ok.)

Just my 2 cents.

[Spiritfingers]

...which is never online in the same time with my other chars:)

I know that. I was just saying you are the only person I even know the alt to. I feel like after all the years I've been playing I should know alts of other players so I can tell if people are mutliboxing.

[Spiritfingers]

Sorry about the double post but this is not actually adressed to Silvonis but to Fin. I know 2 chars (possible the same person) that are botting. Yes, they were for sure, nice setup next to Hogan's keep, chars on top of each other, killing with the same spells sequence, looting, not burying. Also conveniently done during off-peak hours when no admin is online. As soon as srand talked on Global they logged off. I tried asking them to bury mobs, I adressed them by name, I whispered and talked to them in both Nearby and Global. They don't have me on ignore, I talked to them even today so that excuse is not valid.
Those 2 chars advanced in a month like others in a year. Darn fairytale. How do you feel about that? Someone decked 2 chars in max gear, they're running mants, Lab etc, all in about a month. They will be your equal in terms of skills and level when alpha ends.

This is crazy fast. It would probably take me around 2 months just to get combat skills up to lvl 60...this is only a guess though as I don't have any combat skills at 60 except for my original two. Max gear would probably take me like you said a full year.

[Crissa]

It sure didn't sound like Citan said it was okay.

[Citan]

Eh, okay, I'm pretty convinced that multiboxing is going to cause too much trouble in the long term. The problem is that it's very hard to differentiate "fair multiboxing" with "bot-assisted multiboxing". Detecting bots is already hard enough without giving people more wiggle room.

So, starting now, I'm rescinding my temp-approval. You are not allowed to multibox for anything other than item-muling. Sorry, fans of multiboxing! We'll adjust the code of conduct to make this explicit.

Also, just to hammer this home: botting's not allowed, whether it be multiboxing or not. Please remember to report any combat-macroers you find. We have indeed banned people for combat-macroing already. But auto-detecting it is not foolproof, especially during alpha, so it's very helpful to have your reports to corroborate the logs.

[Khaylara]

Eh, okay, I'm pretty convinced that multiboxing is going to cause too much trouble in the long term. The problem is that it's very hard to differentiate "fair multiboxing" with "bot-assisted multiboxing". Detecting bots is already hard enough without giving people more wiggle room.

So, starting now, I'm rescinding my temp-approval. You are not allowed to multibox for anything other than item-muling. Sorry, fans of multiboxing! We'll adjust the code of conduct to make this explicit.

Also, just to hammer this home: botting's not allowed, whether it be multiboxing or not. Please remember to report any combat-macroers you find. We have indeed banned people for combat-macroing already. But auto-detecting it is not foolproof, especially during alpha, so it's very helpful to have your reports to corroborate the logs.

Thank you!!! That's the most sincere "thank you" in the history of thank you s


Crissa no he actually said that he doesn't think that would be allowed in the long run but unless he writes down a firm statement (like he did now) people will take advantage of it (obviously most won't but for the few who would he doesn't have the time to keep checking logs and find proof as he just said)

[Spiritfingers]

Eh, okay, I'm pretty convinced that multiboxing is going to cause too much trouble in the long term. The problem is that it's very hard to differentiate "fair multiboxing" with "bot-assisted multiboxing". Detecting bots is already hard enough without giving people more wiggle room.

So, starting now, I'm rescinding my temp-approval. You are not allowed to multibox for anything other than item-muling. Sorry, fans of multiboxing! We'll adjust the code of conduct to make this explicit.

Also, just to hammer this home: botting's not allowed, whether it be multiboxing or not. Please remember to report any combat-macroers you find. We have indeed banned people for combat-macroing already. But auto-detecting it is not foolproof, especially during alpha, so it's very helpful to have your reports to corroborate the logs.

Critan, since you made a firm decision, are you going to create a dialogue when people log on to state the new enforcing of the rule? That way people have a chance to stop without getting banned. This is a good decision because so many new players are joining the game. I'm not sure there is any way for you take away advantages that were gained by multiboxing in the past though.

[Khaylara]

Everyone new should read the Code of Conduit before playing a game (Citan said he'd add this to the Code of conduit). If anyone did this more recently, too bad...at least Finbarr asked first. If they continue to do so (or worse) they will get banned without much discussion. Based on what I've seen so far they are not very lenient with macro usage. And since multiboxing isn't allowed outside muling, players who multibox in dungeons/while farming or even cheat will be easy to detect. If multiboxing was to be allowed there would've been too many using several chars and the situation would've spun out of control.

I'm in party mood due to Citan's last post lol

[Tagamogi]

Hm, may I suggest sticking the no-boxing rule into a very prominent position in the code of conduct and maybe also adding it to a FAQ?

Coming from an EQ background, it would never have occurred to me that there's anything wrong with playing two characters simultaneously.

[Dmdtt2]

Eh, okay, I'm pretty convinced that multiboxing is going to cause too much trouble in the long term. The problem is that it's very hard to differentiate "fair multiboxing" with "bot-assisted multiboxing". Detecting bots is already hard enough without giving people more wiggle room.

So, starting now, I'm rescinding my temp-approval. You are not allowed to multibox for anything other than item-muling. Sorry, fans of multiboxing! We'll adjust the code of conduct to make this explicit.

Also, just to hammer this home: botting's not allowed, whether it be multiboxing or not. Please remember to report any combat-macroers you find. We have indeed banned people for combat-macroing already. But auto-detecting it is not foolproof, especially during alpha, so it's very helpful to have your reports to corroborate the logs.

out of curiosity what about non combat macros?

examples include

leveling beast speech
civic pride with lamps
farming milk from cows in serbule keep
gardening

just simple macros to keep a character logged in indefinitely so we can craft 1-2k items without having to be at the keys constantly and watch a progress bar for 3 1/2 hours (I hate tailoring sooooo much now)

[Dmdtt2]

Sorry about the double post but this is not actually adressed to Silvonis but to Fin. I know 2 chars (possible the same person) that are botting. Yes, they were for sure, nice setup next to Hogan's keep, chars on top of each other, killing with the same spells sequence, looting, not burying. Also conveniently done during off-peak hours when no admin is online. As soon as srand talked on Global they logged off. I tried asking them to bury mobs, I adressed them by name, I whispered and talked to them in both Nearby and Global. They don't have me on ignore, I talked to them even today so that excuse is not valid.
Those 2 chars advanced in a month like others in a year. Darn fairytale. How do you feel about that? Someone decked 2 chars in max gear, they're running mants, Lab etc, all in about a month. They will be your equal in terms of skills and level when alpha ends.

just to play devils advocate you offered very unsubstantial proof about whether the player was actually macroing. and advancement a person can make within 1 month doesn't indicate if a player macros or not. personally I went from 1-60 for example in 3 1/2 days from when I started playing with almost no help from others all manually. beyond that 4 weeks later I am maxed out in 5 attack skills, 3 skills trained to 70 along with max in 2/3 of the craft skills in the game already. just because a person is able to advance quickly does not mean they are macroing.

[Khariel]

How do you decide who is multi-boxing and who is not?

Obviously there are some behaviors, like a character that just stands there most of the time, but occasionally tosses out a buff, heal, or attack.

Obviously if they're running on the same computer, that's a dead giveaway, but that can only be determined server side by checking logs.

What about same IP though? My gf occasionally logs in and plays with me, not often because her computer is not good and has a hard time running even on minimum settings. Would that be a problem?

[cratoh]

I'm very disappointed to read this.

Khaylara and Greyfyn say no thanks, and that means that its going to cause a fuss? Not understanding that multiboxing doesn't effect them, or anyone else and then Khay threatening to quit makes it a contentious issue, and therefore not allowed?

I think you will find that a lot of people, just by the nature of the way games have come over the past few years, will automatically be thinking about second accounts before even logging in, a particular type of gamer anyway.

I'm really disappointed.

Multiboxing does not create problems - botting does.

Since you made this unfortunate decision, could you please clarify what happens with second accounts? I know loads of people with second accounts for making music, dancing, gardening, storage, guilds, vendors.

Also, like Khariel says - how do you make the call if someone is boxing or not. My wife very occasionally log in, doesn't do much, and isn't very good either. In fact I could probably play 3 characters more effectively.

Off topic slightly - does anyone know of a game apart from WoW and EQ2 where multiboxing isn't discriminated against?

[Khaylara]

@Dmdtt ...precisely. I state they were botting and shoot a report (I'm absolutely positive they were but that's beside the point). When more players use several chars simultaneously they will be reported for sure. Who is gonna process all these reports? Who is going to waste time on it? What's the alternative, just let everyone do whatever they like cause you have no staff to police?

On your question, no, macros are not allowed for anything (pretty clear from both Silvonis and Citan, it's automated gameplay). If you used them you are very lucky not to be banned..


Quote "You are not allowed to multibox for anything other than item-muling" So simultaneosly running 2+ chars to do the tedious stuff obviously falls into the no-no category.


@ Fin You know very well that Citan wouldn't go back on a decision based only on a temper tantrum from me or Grey...He probably read, had time to process and reached the same conclusion. Allowing it would open a can of worms. Why you wanna multibox anyway, you pretty much have everything maxed already.


edit @ Khariel I know many people who play with their gf/bf, kids, spouse and I ve never seen devs having a problem with it. If that helps:)

[cratoh]

Hi Citan,

I really enjoy playing your game, and have invested quite some time, and some cash and effort into it, making people feel welcome, trying to be useful member of alpha and the community. I want it to succeed, and hope that it will, but I have to say I am very disappointed with your decision on multi boxing. I am totally hacked off with the discrimination, and misconceptions around it, and the issues other players have on it. Essentially I have had other players ignorance of a play style forced on me with your decision - as a multi boxer yourself in WoW you are aware that yes you can do things with it that would be hard alone - but that is the point. It facilitates play in low population games or areas. You are never as effective as a full group. You never have the massive resource advantage that anti-boxing people seem to think you have, because you send it on equipping the boxed characters anyway.

P:G in particular would have been great fun to box in quiet times, and pretty difficult to have had any advantage because of the myriad of skills needed to round out a character.

I wish you would consider making a bit of an effort here by allowing multiboxing, and just explaining to the people that don't realise that it is not the end of the world, that it is none of their business to force play style on another player, and that it doesn't impact them anyway.

Cheers,

Finbarr

[chill]

"Discrimination" against multi-boxers ?? Just play the game normally. Having a second account multiboxed for muleing/trade/storage is already a massive advantage in a small indie game built around the favor system and similar progression. There's already issues with there being a select few popular hunting/farming/camped spots. Now you drag along more characters from the same person and add them to the equation?

I'm glad it's not being allowed, especially not for combat (that seems like a no-brainer).

[Spiritfingers]

I have a feeling global is about to get a lot more heated when srand or Silvonis comes online. These types of decisions are hard and some will hate it some will love it. I'm more from the group..just play the game the way it is lined up to be played. In fact, I can't think of a single mmo I've ever played that allowed multi boxing..no I never played EVE online.

[sudostahp]

I've been watching this thread out of curiosity, but I figured that it's time that I register an account and share my perspective.

I'm a multiboxer. I've played anywhere from 2-20 accounts at a time in AC, WoW, Rift, and Guild Wars 2. I have not multiboxed in combat in PG, but I have used it for other things. It's why I purchased two Patron packages for when the game goes retail. I've been multiboxing for over a decade, and it's about much more than gaining some sort of competitive edge -- it's a play style. I do it for the additional challenge that it creates, and I do it to more effectively engage in challenging combat scenarios without the need of a group.

I dislike raids. I dislike organized group content focused on rare drops and progression. Multiboxing helps me compensate that disinterest with self-reliance.

Regardless of the eventual policy decision, I intend on multiboxing. My computer is more than powerful enough to run two instances of VMware, and I have the financial means to purchase another machine if needed. Folks like @dmdtt and myself are tech-savvy, and while we can be chased underground, multiboxing in itself can be hard to detect.

Frankly, I think this is all tilting at windmills. Combat macros are the real problem, and combat macros + multiboxing is where the problem has occurred in other games. Multiboxing is incredibly frustrating, time-consuming, and gives little advantage in that 1+n accounts always requires 1+n gear and councils to level. Let players manually multibox if they find that the fun outweighs the inherent annoyance. If players use it to interfere with the experience of other players, e.g., camping a boss, that's an easier thing to address with the COC.

[cratoh]

I've been watching this thread out of curiosity, but I figured that it's time that I register an account and share my perspective.


Frankly, I think this is all tilting at windmills. Combat macros are the real problem, and combat macros + multiboxing is where the problem has occurred in other games. Multiboxing is incredibly frustrating, time-consuming, and gives little advantage in that 1+n accounts always requires 1+n gear and councils to level. Let players manually multibox if they find that the fun outweighs the inherent annoyance. If players use it to interfere with the experience of other players, e.g., camping a boss, that's an easier thing to address with the COC.

Exactly my point. And that is why I find input from people who don't get the difference between boxing, and boxing with bot programs that come and feedback on soemthing they don't understand, and scupper it, so bloody annoying.

Edit to add:

I'd like to think the community here was open minded about different peoples ways of getting enjoyment out of a game, and for myself and a lot of other multiboxing, thinking about a lot of characters and their gear and convoluted hoarding, progression and the like is in effect a meta-game, or end game when group stuff and raid content is not preferable, or for when player numbers are lower, as they are sometimes for people in non-US time zones. Added to that - I would like to think the community is responsible enough to not use bots/macros or to cheat and that the core of players in P:G would certainly be reporting any of the few instances where it is seen, I know I have.

It's a shame to see misconceptions used to vociferously berate players for 'cheating' when as Sudostahp pointed out, multi boxing manually, though rewarding, is time consuming and difficult and not at all the faceroll that some people imagine it to be, and furthermore - it is hardly difficult to get max level from fresh off the isle these days any way. As Dmdtt pointed out it took only a few days.

Greyfyn's comment that 'Now you have what looks like player mobs running together, which could be friends, but sometimes really look like bots. Your caves and dungeons don't have the capacity for multiple groups of this type AND solo players. It's a logistics concern, which is why players get ornery about it.' Well, the way the game is designed already it wouldn't matter if it is mutiboxers or solo players, the dungeons will still be empty - there just isn't enough mobs full stop.

Grobs comments regarding Industry. You can still have more than one account to use. Even if multiboxing - having more than one account logged in - is banned it still doesn't stop people having multiple accounts and playing them 1 at a time and level up Industry on all of them.

Chill's comment 'just play the game normally' What is normal? I like multiboxing, was looking forward to trying it. There is no normal.

Greyfun's comment 'Allowing wide open multiboxing--is going to make the players who don't like that style of play disappear from game.' No, no it isn't. People play games because they liek the gameplay. Nothing about multiboxing stops someone who isn't doing it from playing their game. If anything it would not encourage people from other games, WoW, EQ, EQ2, who enjoy multiboxing to start playing.

Spiritfingers comment 'In fact, I can't think of a single mmo I've ever played that allowed multi boxing' Off the top of my head I can think of a few: EverQuest, EverQuest II, Age of Conan, Aion, Anarchy Online, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Dungeons and Dragons Online, EVE Online, Lord of the Rings Online, , Lineage, Lineage II, Ultima Online, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Warhammer Online and World of Warcraft for example. (RIP VSoH)

[Khaylara]

Sudostahp I suggest reading Citan's first post again. By memory he said that he doesn't intend to allow multiboxing after launch so if players intend to purchase multiple accounts for that purpose he is advising against doing so.

The debate was for multiboxing in alpha.

Not gonna argue the point further but remember this is a small indie game, non-instanced and with a limited capacity server. It is not either AC, WoW, Rift or GW. Citan said he multiboxed in WoW, I multiboxed in l2 (and used macros cause it was allowed and even recommended to do so).
NOT the same thing at all. And if you are such seasoned gamers I'm sure you see the difference but choose to put your idea of fun above anything else. Tired of saying the same thing reallly....they don't have the staff to check all the reports about botting (accurate or not they STILL have to check)....blah blah....people will take advantage ....blah blah...You don't get that what you are doing/intend to do is an exploit, really?

I understand Fin, very well, i policed a (much larger) server and I got sick of people finding inventive ways to exploit something that it's supposed to be fun and balanced. I can explain to you if you wish how the company's income dropped when we weren't policing enough and removing enough "multiboxes". What's next, trading for real cash?
No, nobody is stupid enough not to understand the "difference between botting and multiboxing". If you take a breather and think you would realize that is bad for the server though it might be enjoyable for you.

Also I am solo oriented myself but if I wanna play alone I play BG or mount and blade...or witcher...there's plenty of good single player games out there.

Anyway this is itching on my nerves already cause it's so obtuse so I'm out.

[eikona]

Exactly my point. And that is why I find input from people who don't get the difference between boxing, and boxing with bot programs that come and feedback on soemthing they don't understand, and scupper it, so bloody annoying.

Traditionally, multi-boxers hog content and that is why you have hostility. To say that people who oppose it don't understand it is to misunderstand where the opposition is coming from. Yes, I understand that not all multi-boxers are botting and macroing. I am less opposed to those who do not bot/macro, however in my anecdotal experience (and I am sure you will tell me you are not one of these players), those who multi-box prevent me from playing, particularly in contested or low population content.

I have known some great people, who log out one account when they encounter another player, and group with them instead. However, the vast majority refuse to group, and because they have 2 accounts playing, they will generally squeeze a single player out of the area. They won't respond to tells, and if they do it's to tell whoever is contacting them that they aren't interested in grouping. I realize this is painting with a broad brush, however, you seemed to be tossing away those who do not like boxing with a broad brush yourself.

There are differing opinions on this issue, and no matter which way Citan goes, people are going to be upset. It's a sucky position for him to be in. But please don't posit that because my opinion is different from yours, I don't understand.

[cratoh]

The debate was for multiboxing in alpha.

And if you are such seasoned gamers I'm sure you see the difference but choose to put your idea of fun above anything else.



Snipped a bit here - no it wasn't, it was about multiboxing in general, and about whether it was going to be allowed going forward to release.

I'm such a seasoned gamer that I understand multiboxing, like any form of gameplay, is not damaging to any game unless abused.

I

[alleryn]

I don't like multiboxing because it discourages grouping and interaction.

Also, i feel like letting people run multiple accounts basically multiplies their income by the number of accounts since much income comes from chests/boss loots that are gated by respawn timers. Allowing people to get around that gating is bound to cause inflation in prices that make things more difficult to anyone playing on a single account.

Edit: just to expound upon what i meant about grouping and interaction, i don't mean to force my preferred way of playing on anyone else. If you want to play the game with minimal interaction i have no problem with that.

But, i'm the kind of person that tends to shy away from interactivity myself. (Less so now than when i was younger, but still to some extent). If multiboxing is allowed, chances are i'll end up just multiboxing because it's easier than forming a group with other people. And i know that i won't ultimately enjoy myself as much if i give in to that easy way.

Secondly, the more people that multibox, the fewer our options when we search out comrades-in-arms (or -in-hoes or -in-umm whatever surveyors use those little minitelescope things). Like i said, if you don't want to interact with the community or don't want to group that's fine, but if the whole game becomes that way, i think it loses a lot of potential; and that is a danger in a small indie-type setting.

[Dmdtt2]

I don't like multiboxing because it discourages grouping and interaction.

Also, i feel like letting people run multiple accounts basically multiplies their income by the number of accounts since much income comes from chests/boss loots that are gated by respawn timers. Allowing people to get around that gating is bound to cause inflation in prices that make things more difficult to anyone playing on a single account.

Edit: just to expound upon what i meant about grouping and interaction, i don't mean to force my preferred way of playing on anyone else. If you want to play the game with minimal interaction i have no problem with that.

But, i'm the kind of person that tends to shy away from interactivity myself. (Less so now than when i was younger, but still to some extent). If multiboxing is allowed, chances are i'll end up just multiboxing because it's easier than forming a group with other people. And i know that i won't ultimately enjoy myself as much if i give in to that easy way.

Secondly, the more people that multibox, the fewer our options when we search out comrades-in-arms (or -in-hoes or -in-umm whatever surveyors use those little minitelescope things). Like i said, if you don't want to interact with the community or don't want to group that's fine, but if the whole game becomes that way, i think it loses a lot of potential; and that is a danger in a small indie-type setting.

two things id like to address,

first off having more accounts for multiboxing would also increase a players costs for playing/training/crafting etc which will offset what they get from having more boss drops, also you technically get less loot per character on normal mobs. normally when leveling you would kill x number of monsters to hit max level with multiboxing the amount of monsters killed is increased slightly because of group sharing xp but the number of mobs you loot is fewer per character than you would if you leveled with only 1 client so initially a multiboxer would be at a monetary disadvantage for quite awhile until they have already dropped 400-500k on training per character. after which point sure in theory once they have estabilished their clients they would gain slightly more money/drops than a solo player but they would still be supporting 2 clients at the same time each requiring consumables/gear upgrades/phlog etc.

next I wanted to address groups, just because other people multibox does not mean it would make it harder to find a group. if anything in a lot of settings this would make it easier for a solo player to find a group as they would be able to tag along with a single player running 3-4 clients to achieve higher level content rather than requiring 3-4 players to help you.

[Dmdtt2]

personally here is my opinion on the matter, multiboxing should be allowed under a few conditions

-no botting programs that interact directly with the client allowing for autonomous control
-players must send all actions to all clients themselves
-no conduct which directly effects other players gaming experience in a negative way(camping an entire dungeon or boss etc)

if a person can multibox under these conditions have at it, as it will in no way have any impact on my playing experience. or the experience of others aside from a couple bruised egos being the worst possible outcome.

[alleryn]

two things id like to address,

first off having more accounts for multiboxing would also increase a players costs for playing/training/crafting etc which will offset what they get from having more boss drops, also you technically get less loot per character on normal mobs. normally when leveling you would kill x number of monsters to hit max level with multiboxing the amount of monsters killed is increased slightly because of group sharing xp but the number of mobs you loot is fewer per character than you would if you leveled with only 1 client so initially a multiboxer would be at a monetary disadvantage for quite awhile until they have already dropped 400-500k on training per character. after which point sure in theory once they have estabilished their clients they would gain slightly more money/drops than a solo player but they would still be supporting 2 clients at the same time each requiring consumables/gear upgrades/phlog etc.

next I wanted to address groups, just because other people multibox does not mean it would make it harder to find a group. if anything in a lot of settings this would make it easier for a solo player to find a group as they would be able to tag along with a single player running 3-4 clients to achieve higher level content rather than requiring 3-4 players to help you.
The increased cost of training is a one time cost. The income is multiplied. As anyone who has played any RTS or turn based strategy game knows, you build your income first. The multiboxer plateaus at an income greater by some multiplicative factor than a single toon account holder.

If the training cost is such a deterrent, feel free to not spend money on training or gear on your main toon. I'm sure the savings will offset your lower income.

And as far as "getting to tag along", sorry but that doesn't appeal to me. I want to be on equal footing with the other members of my group, not the fifth wheel to my one teammate's four wheel drive.

[Khaylara]

Regardless of the eventual policy decision, I intend on multiboxing. My computer is more than powerful enough to run two instances of VMware, and I have the financial means to purchase another machine if needed. Folks like @dmdtt and myself are tech-savvy, and while we can be chased underground, multiboxing in itself can be hard to detect.

.

Can't tell if srs or trolling.

Anyway since this is not being locked here's at Fin and the 2 other supporters of this idea.

You have always exploited, bypassed the system on alts
-vendored on alts when you drained the vendors
-repeated WO on multiple alts although only one char can craft
-took advantage of any incorrectly set vendor item value
-looted elites on alts
-multiboxed to do gardening, get music or dance buffs

You want me to go on? All these are exploits already and you're "disappointed" that you're not allowed more. Rlly? Yes Fin, I read your cringey "mt" on Global about me being ...what was it "A shit player who takes as long as possible to max anything". Maybe I wanna enjoy playing? Maybe I want to explore the content fair and square w/o finding loopholes to OP my pixels persona?

Get stuffed seriously and stop pulling the "I paid multiple accounts, you should allow me to multibox cause I paid" card. It's an indie game, a small server and one developer who can set whatever rules he likes. Buying multiple accounts doesn't mean you're entitled to anything.

(Also blatantly posting that you intend to break the rules anyway cause you're not gonna get caught is beyond rude and I'd ban you for just that.)

Seriously, cut it out, it's embarassing.

[Silvonis]

We've made it clear that multi-boxing is not allowed, expect for item-muling, and those who continue to do so risk having their account banned.

Since the policy has been clarified, I'll be closing this thread.