AOE grinding for skins (with total immunity to damage from mobs)

[poulter]

By using fire AOE and a single staff skill (Blocking stance) it is possible to farm the Gazluk wolf cave (Tower view) with total immunity to monster damage IF you can kill the monsters within 10 seconds.

I suspect that this capability is not a desirable outcome for the game, so will leave it to the devs to comment whether this should be considered an exploit.
Personally, I believe that it is 'legal', but that the mob damage types need to be varied (e.g. add a fire or sonic attack) to prevent it.
It does however, require very good gear, so many players might not be able to do it. If you can 3-shot kill a single mob with AOE spells, then you probably can.

Method:
Identify mobs that only do physical damage (crushing, slashing or piercing). These are typically wolves, wargs, panthers(?), etc.
Equip your fire AOE build with Staff as your secondary (no staff mods required)
Go to your preferred location
Gather a few mobs together
Cast Blocking Stance (you get 10 seconds of immunity to their damage type)
Cast fire AOE (especially Fire Breath) - kill all the mobs within 10 seconds
Loot /skin dead mobs
Rinse and repeat

In Gazluk wolf cave I soloed 6 mobs at once for zero damage (the maximum that I was able to gather for one fight). All mobs died in 2 or 3-shots.

[Mikhaila]

There have been many threads on how AOE was first exploitive, and then nerfed. I think it's in a decent place right now.

While you can do this with fire, and take no damage, I can do the same with Unarmed and Psycology. And I would assume a lot of others combos work as well. I take damage, but it's gone in 10 seconds after the fight. Wolves and wargs are pretty easy mobs at Level 70 with good gear. The problem is never killing, just finding enough to kill. If even two people are in that cave, you are mostly running around fighting 1-2 mobs at a time.

It's easy to farm because of the factors you mention: lower hp mobs, no nasty attacks, all physical. You've found a good combo for it. Staff is designed to have mitigation, fire is designed to have AOE burst damage. So I think it's a case of you just picking the correct weapons for the area.

[Arundel]

I have to say that worries like this can get so paranoid that they lead developers to make all the classes or fights like World of Warcraft (homogenized, is the word I hear most often). Listen, there is always going to be something REALLY effective. Panthers was an example - now nerfed. I have no feelings about it one way or another (panthers that is). In this case talking about general abilities and spreading these fears to every area I begin to wonder where this community worry stops. Listen as long as root effects, stuns, +mitigation (not %, well even %), resistances, etc. exist then stuff like area of effect is really good. Taking the argument further there are people who solo General Pask and other content that is more "solo boss fight" type stuff (whether intended or not) and get super geared from it really fast.

With some builds if you are good you can solo higher level dungeons (Lab and Gazluk for example: in certain areas, or most of it for some people/specs). We are beginning to WAY outgear stuff and the devs have admitted this more than once - this is why they are thrilled to get the much higher level cap content in. They just need time. We are like sharks in a goldfish pond at this point. We have destroyed all the content, maxed our gear, and become effective enough to run over content in about any zone.

In your example you are talking about an overgeared level 70 on both specs destroying level 50 content: of course this will happen. I effortlessly fast clear the same areas with battle chemistry/fire; cow+ anything; my friends do so with lycan (and murder boss enemies nearly instantly, highly fair right :P) or any number of probably 30+ spec combinations not because we are some godlike skilled players but we have level 70 gear mods, yellow gear in every slot (or w/e you need, its usually not even that to be honest), maximized 7 mod gear on the armor slots and sometimes weapon, make pretty smart decisions, players share information to make this process faster, share resources, etc. A nearly limitless number of reasons we are running over content and will no matter how many nerfs. If they destroy our AoE builds completely (they haven't) then we just switch to builds that can pump out high single target damage and kill 1 dungeon mob after another in 1 hit.

If this logic, "we are too effective at x" is applied to all or many areas it begins to degenerate and start to effect developer thought process. I'd only ask that they be careful about nerfing stuff now before we reach higher level content. Didn't they say like level 150 is max at some point? We are getting level 100 before the end of the year (most likely, launch) - wow! I'm excited to get run over by monsters - thrilled even. So I'd say we stall any more worry about being too strong in lower level content until we see what class changes and new content is ahead. I'd be more worried if a build was easily soloing all of Gazluk keep in a fast and efficient manner (I have not heard of this, but I'm not in with all the super elite all content farmed type of players) because it would mean they are able to generate waaaaay too much wealth and this would begin to affect one or two players' effect on the economy (being able to buy all the items that are any good in a day, and starve others, etc.).

OK I will stop the rambling.
TLDR: Lets be careful about altering level 50 and below content due to overgearing it by miles.

[Mikhaila]

Another thought: The wolf cave in Gaz has pretty homogeneous mobs, but also has homogeneous loot. Outside of a few once a day boxes, you can expect to have to continuously dump or flog rings and necklaces while gathering amazing and great skins. I actually prefer to do the outside area of Gaz. I can gather a lot of the same skins, plus tundra lichen, spruce, ice cores, rare fruits, metals, and now and then an explosive run, Notus Book, or expensive recipe. More fun, and better loot. Also a bit trickier and you die more, but that's why it isn't a boring grind.

[Crissa]

I think this is an artifact of the cave and mobs. If you don't do it right, you don't win, and heck, you might still lose.

What level vs the wolves, as well? Think to the lowest level that this might actually work.

You'd still expect there to be 'perfect storms' in which an AoE technique might work, even if it's balanced properly.

[OpieFisher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

We aren't talking about the game even,we're talking about trash mobs getting treated like trash as being an issue apparently.

[Crissa]

We aren't talking about the game even,we're talking about trash mobs getting treated like trash as being an issue apparently. If they're being used for skins, they are the objective, not trash.

[OpieFisher]

We aren't talking about balancing for Gazlak Keep.We aren't talking about balancing over level 100 content.We aren't talking about balancing for level 125 content right now.
We are talking balance over trash mobs in a cave that once we get newer content no one will care about.
I fail to see farming (either AoE or single target) anything to be an issue to be quite frank.
Let's be honest,by rights we should have a server with developer tools to test the actual game with but we have to grind out money for our own skills.

What worries me is clearly this idea gets some play with Big E,because trash mobs getting the boot isn't something that really needs to be on the radar right now.

It bears mentioning that we are gonna get a gold/item wipe so to say that you are worried somebody is getting rich just holds no water with me,I'm much more concerned about getting to a point before the wipe were to balance even makes sense to do.Spending so much time on tweaks to every skill can and will eat up time that could be better spent making the game.

[Crissa]

OpieFisher They literally aren't 'trash mobs' if they're what someone went to the dungeon to kill.

[OpieFisher]

Just going by your logic there is no trash,everytime you go anywhere it's for something.

I say again if it's the word trash that's bugging you,I do not care about folks steamrolling mobs that they are over leveled and over geared for.
What I do care about is the fact that apparently we are now blanket balancing skills over folks complaining about low level mob farming.
I wouldn't have said anything at all if this wasn't apparently something that was listened to and acted upon.

Again,it's not the money that's the issue.
We are getting a wipe and to be frank skins aren't what the rich folks made their money on.
But time is getting spent on implementing nerfs for nonsense,if you are fine with that more power to you.

[poulter]

Some interesting comments /points of view, but I t think people are reading more into this than intended.

Is there an issue? I don't know, but if people can grind loot with absolute impunity /no chance of harm: Is that good for the game?
And if it can be done a current levels, why couldn't it be done at level 100+ (or even level 30)? - after all this is being allowed by the design.


Also, we are talking about level 60 /65 mobs (not level 50) that drop Amazing skins which are very desirable /lucrative and current end-game.
Regarding the location: Yes, it does become crowded (even with just 2 people), but off-peak EST, I can quite often have a 2-hour solo session.

Regarding the build: Yes, it is deliberately chosen and the grinding (I am there only for the skins) can be done by other skill combos, but only the staff build provides total protection with zero risk.

It might also be noted that this is not primarily about gear quality, but about how many mobs can you kill in a 10-second window of immunity. Not forgetting, you could also use Deflective Spin if needed.

[Arundel]

Some interesting comments /points of view, but I t think people are reading more into this than intended.

Is there an issue? I don't know, but if people can grind loot with absolute impunity /no chance of harm: Is that good for the game?
And if it can be done a current levels, why couldn't it be done at level 100+ (or even level 30)? - after all this is being allowed by the design.


Also, we are talking about level 60 /65 mobs (not level 50) that drop Amazing skins which are very desirable /lucrative and current end-game.
Regarding the location: Yes, it does become crowded (even with just 2 people), but off-peak EST, I can quite often have a 2-hour solo session.

Regarding the build: Yes, it is deliberately chosen and the grinding (I am there only for the skins) can be done by other skill combos, but only the staff build provides total protection with zero risk.

It might also be noted that this is not primarily about gear quality, but about how many mobs can you kill in a 10-second window of immunity. Not forgetting, you could also use Deflective Spin if needed.

There are several builds other than staff that have near damage immunity to certain level mobs. Playing Cow lately, in many lower level areas (Wolf Cave included) I have to occassionally use a cooldown or slightly care while trampling over monsters like this. There are just lots of really tanky builds, really high damage builds, etc.
It takes REALLY big hits, like Gazluk level, to bring an unhealed tank down. And I know my Cow doesn't do the damage of a lot of other specs I have played, but Staff+Fire wouldn't be much of a competitor for top tier glass cannon specs either. This game is just kind of weird in this way, like many old MMO's, it doesn't force everyone to run % mitigation builds and slowly get devoured in any zone.

I feel like our testing is getting way too hyperfocused on content that is irrelevant. I can hardly even remember using an item from Wolf Cave seeing as how leveling is so fast in this game I was just aoe-ing to 70 on most skills. We are all focused on maxing skills, making money, and maxing more skills while also getting to play with friends and such. Too much time in a small room can get you to thinking everything else is small too, which is kind of how our mindset as players has gotten. I don't mind that you brought up the subject and, honestly, wouldn't mind if most topics were brought up. I am just not sure that a serious concern needs to be the length of damage immunity combos if you can kill the thing in 10 seconds - I'd hope that most actual even level dungeon mobs take longer than 10 seconds to kill if properly designed. Otherwise it should only take 2-3 seconds for a group (or much less) and that seems trivial to be honest. It obviously wasn't a very hard fight. Many MMO's have had abilities (I'd say nearly all the ones I have played) with long immunity to damage or immunity to "x" or some other awesome ability with a longish cooldown. I'd be more concerned if players could kill mobs in Gazluk rapidly (not just random strategies to pull solo dungeon enemies over and over for level 75+ gear mods) as a solo player while remaining damage immune. I wouldn't put it past some builds to already be doing this and I just don't have staff on my radar as one of them because it relies so much on this one cooldown to do anything that unique.

Case in point, I am pretty sure my cow build (no 2nd spec) can solo that entire zone and I have basically done so for guildies (by basically I mean someone was along collecting loot :P). Many players did the same for me when I was starting off and I rather enjoyed how weird this game was (in the most complimentary way) because they didn't hyper focus on balancing EVERYTHING and homogenizing any outliers until it all felt the same. Lots of players do the same with Archery, Lycan, etc. There are just a bunch of really good skills that did, or still, outclass other ones at lower levels (anything below Labs and Gazluk) because of various issues like "HP of mobs or bosses vs. player damage potential", damage output of mobs, etc.

I used to watch Staff/Archery and Staff/Fire do large aoe pulls at panthers a year ago and nothing has been changed, because its just really low level and a dozen other builds can solo it too (which is the case for Wolf Cave, although it is higher in level than panthers so obviously more on your radar). I know that Wolf Cave can drop some items and skins that people would really want but I'd hate to see them include annoying monsters in nearly every pull in zones and dungeons (like with panthers) until it is all homogenized and cute "one off" builds designed by players specifically for soloing lose all their cuteness and use. What ends up happening as a side effect of long term balancing this way is it is REALLY fricking hard for developers to make skills unique and random in a game like this (with essentially infinite builds) and the "safer is better" approach can take over. Those are the games I quit. So I will in many cases argue against repeated changes in one direction if I feel the game will become boring and next thing I know I will be towing the line with everyone else in Gazluk or bust.

I was fine with the panther nerf despite having used it a lot (along with a huge portion of level 70 players). But if every spot or just overall every type of immunity gets trashed until we are left with people feeling like they should run heal-bots to effectively solo, I'd be a bit sad. So I know my counter argument is a bit of a "slippery slope" type thing, and I'm not disrespecting yours at all, I just really hope the "imbalanced" nature of low level play never goes away because I rather enjoy it and then running into Gazluk and facing some "real" damage very quickly.

[OpieFisher]

Matter of fact,if you could go back in time and take 85-90% of the nerfs we've had and just use the time elsewhere the game would have been better for it.
1.The game would be done by now,and
2.We'd have a vast set of diverse,powerful and unique builds to play.

You folks forget that most of the nerfs we've had that weren't related to gamebreaking bugs we're done directly to combat how much damage was being dealt and to avoid having to increase mob health.
Talking back when the meanest troll in WN had 800 hp.Yeah they got a bit bigger since then anyway but now we don't a lot of interesting mods anymore off the back of that with not much to show for the time used.

After mulling it over I think all this nerf talk boils down to how much damage folks are seeing,in which case there's a real easy fix.
Remove Transmutation as a skill from the game.All gear that was modified with transmutation gets straight deleted.
You see so much damage because of the ubiquity of certain damage mods and the ease with which you can just shove the lot onto a piece of gear in very little time.
Hell,add back in single skill belts while you are at it.There's a reason why going with a single skill was a thing even,so you could get the mods you wanted easier.

[Mikhaila]

The whole " grind loot with absolute impunity /no chance of harm" just isn't an issue. How is it any different from "Grind loot and get hit some" ? Even if you die, Who cares? you lose a minute? Especially in the wolf cave, it just doesn't matter.

I ran around Gazuk for 6 hours yesterdays, just roaming the plateau. I died once and was grinding continuously. My main problem now is waiting for vendors to get more money for stacks of skins :) I didn't fight "with impunity". I took damage. But in the end, I can grind out a ton of materials with little to know consequences for dying. I'm using unarmed and psych. There are a lot of better combos than that for grinding mobs.

Just a non issue at this point as far as one build goes.

[Tagamogi]

I am just not sure that a serious concern needs to be the length of damage immunity combos if you can kill the thing in 10 seconds - I'd hope that most actual even level dungeon mobs take longer than 10 seconds to kill if properly designed.

Yes, that. If you can gather and kill all mobs within a 10-second window, I think your risk of dying to them is pretty close to zero, with or without damage immunity.

FWIW, I feel you can accomplish a similar effect to the staff immunity by using aoe freeze abilities (freezing mist, tundra spikes) - freeze melee mobs in place, then step back and aoe them while they can't get into range to hit you. Slightly more chance of getting hit initially than a complete immunity, but still quite effective. The aoe freeze does feel a bit overpowered to me at times, but I don't know if it really is. I mostly treat it as lifesaver in difficult encounters - if there are mobs I can kill off in 10 seconds, I wouldn't even bother with it.

[Mesk]

What if i told you the same was possible with only a single skill! Heck add in priest just to click a single priest button every 1 minute, and add a fire mod --- dont even need to be a fire mage, just have the mod and appropriate level... you can be un-hittable even longer and kill any number of wolfs easily with 3 spells. BC, but as some people put it its just a travel skill.

[Lasc]

Isnt this just due to the player concerned out gearing the content they are doing?
If it want this cave, it could be the Kur wolf cave, or Animal Nexus, etc.

There will always be a scenario where an over geared player can march into an area for what they need (doesnt matter where that area is) and massacre the population. Every MMO you see this when a 'geared' player enters an area where the gear worn, out levels the content of the area. Be it an instance, open world, whatever.

Theres also nothing to stop anyone from doing it. Your not bound to a 'class' or 'calling'. You can do it too.

All that said, If I were in a position like where i saw a player doing that, and i was in a position where i couldnt id be a little miffed too.

Keep in mind:
* That player farming is like everyone else, and bound to the reward of what they are able to sell. Every vendor has a limited coin pool, Player Markets move much slower - not a guaranteed income source when you need it.
* If the player is farming that fast, they will likely also be finished fairly fast.
* As someone else said (sorry, i cant seem to find the post) Thats one way to farm skins..... But if you were to farm outside, you'd get wood (hehe i said get wood), lichen, cores, skins, sludge etc. A much wider pool of items to use/onsell.
* Theres no rush. I think this one is critical. Its natural to want a full skill/spell book asap. In PG, this means farming councils and favor.... one way or another. But goal posts will move after that. Then it'll be another skill, and another.... etc Theres the grind cycle of PG. The draw for me though, is PG kind of encourages players to go at their own pace.... fast movers get hit with 'noone to buy my crap'.... banks full of rolls, wood, etc.

If you are looking to farm, and an areas full, think about what you saw.... If someone is geared to the teeth and can do that in Gaz cave, then i can do it in..... (insert a lower tier area here)

While you wont get the same end product (say amazing skins), your kill frequency in a lower tier area may net you more nice, quality or great skins at a faster rate, the sum of which depletes the same vendor currency pools in the 1 week turn around as the player doing the top tier stuff. The end result, is your coin balance will still rise quite fast.

I guess what im saying... Theres plenty for everybody. :)

[Crissa]

On that aside... Try sending a message.


/tell Farmer31 Hey, I'm trying to hunt Parasol Mushrooms. I need five.

And they often will reply


Farmer31: Oh, I didn't see you! I'm looking for Rat Tails.

And now you can offer to trade them the rat tails - or even leave the rats - so they can get those, while they can avoid the mushrooms you wanted.

Another is to ask if they're going towards a certain boss.


/t HighLevel90 Hey, I'm trying to get the Boss in the Green Zone. What are you trying to farm?

HighLevel90: I need all the arts

/r Okay! I'm collecting any goblin cards under level 24, too.

This doesn't always work, but when there's a high level, well, that's often basically what you need to group. And really, having a lowbie pull stuff off you is great. It's not like there isn't too much loot for everyone anyhow! The only problem comes in situations when you can't really help (like some of the poisonous zones or mobs).

[dymarr]

On that aside... Try sending a message.


/tell Farmer31 Hey, I'm trying to hunt Parasol Mushrooms. I need five.

And they often will reply


Farmer31: Oh, I didn't see you! I'm looking for Rat Tails.

And now you can offer to trade them the rat tails - or even leave the rats - so they can get those, while they can avoid the mushrooms you wanted.

Another is to ask if they're going towards a certain boss.


/t HighLevel90 Hey, I'm trying to get the Boss in the Green Zone. What are you trying to farm?

HighLevel90: I need all the arts

/r Okay! I'm collecting any goblin cards under level 24, too.

This doesn't always work, but when there's a high level, well, that's often basically what you need to group. And really, having a lowbie pull stuff off you is great. It's not like there isn't too much loot for everyone anyhow! The only problem comes in situations when you can't really help (like some of the poisonous zones or mobs).



Let me throw some anecdotal evidence on the pile! I am usually wrapping up my evenings by doing a quick treasure tour of the goblin keep, usually stopping at or around the bear boss. I significantly out-level the area but I need the councils and at this time of night I am winding down for bed so I also don't need anything that challenges me. When I encounter another player I will usually but not always send them a group invite, however before killing a boss I always check the area to make sure there isn't another group moving in on that boss. I dont want a group of level appropriate players to have to wait for a fresh respawn, it happened to me and my friends a few times and it can get frustrating when you have worked hard to clear an area and someone rushes in and 2 shots your objective.

I guess my goal of posting is to let people know that if you are going to farm stuff significantly below your level that is fine. I see no reason to waste developers time trying to stop this behavior. I will say dont be an asshole about it though. If you pull too much (maybe you got 5-6 mantis's and are getting chain stunned) dont make it someone else's problem. It is much easier for you to clear back to where you were than it would be for level appropriate people. Also dont swoop in and steal a boss spawn. Take 10 seconds and make sure nobody else is waiting/working towards that boss, you will all get the same amount of loot so just group up for the kill and then continue on with your farming.

Also, I have found it to be very productive to be clear about your intentions in that dungeon. I have teamed up with plenty of people who were trying to level their goblinese while I am just along for the vendor junk. Grouping up worked well for both of our goals.