Scamming - What's your take on it?

[Gervase]

Let me start off on this foot first, I do not condone scamming nor would I ever partake in it. I believe it is a very untrustworthy thing to do, it's morally (game-wise) wrong to do, and it tarnishes your name beyond belief if found out or caught.

But should it be considered a punishable offense by administration? No, I do not think so.

I believe good players / people are just as much allowed as evil players / people. What do I think is allowed, and not allowed?

Not Allowed:
Hacking - Obvious reasons.
Exploiting - Obvious Reasons.
Harassment - In the form of, bringing things from the real world. I believe RP has it's place in a game like this.

Allowed:
Scamming - People like playing con artists.
Griefing - How ever you can do that, it should be allowed. While staying within the fair bounds of the game.


Now like I said, I don't condone what I believe should be allowed - I dislike it, and wish people /didn't/ do it - regardless.. It should be allowed as I don't choose the play styles of others and have no right to ruin that for them so long as it is fair.

My question to you, the community and administration is this - Should this be a bannable offense? Is it a bannable offense? If it's not, what would -we- the players do about this. I'm just curious where every one stands on the topic.

[Oxlazr]

I don't think it has a place in Project Gorgon. The game has only recently shifted to a more economy-focused environment; earlier on, people would just hand out bits and pieces as people needed them. Until you mentioned it just now, the thought of someone scamming in PG had never crossed my mind, but with the game heading down the economy path, I can imagine it'll eventually be an issue.

The player base is incredibly small; you're going to be remembered as a scammer, and people will eventually be skeptical of dealing with low-level alts.

So I'd just say.. avoid it all together. WoW had a good handle on it - if someone said something in chat, they were bound to their word via the chatlogs - I.e. "you give me this, I'll do this for you" - and they don't do that thing, well, then that can be addressed through a report, with appropriate punishment.

If it were a competitive PvP game, then sure - I'd be all for scamming; but PG is most definitely a PvE game, and a co-operative one at that. I don't think purposely allowing a toxic action to take place in the game would do it any credit.

[Easylivin]

How do you scam?

[Gervase]

How do you scam?

Convince some one to give you items, in return you'll make some thing for them with those items or come back with some thing different.

[Easylivin]

Assuming a new character could earn any kind of trust with a player that isn't a newbie, there isn't much to gain with scamming. The person would have to recreate the character because once they scam once, they are done. And now what do they get? 4-5 items that take 30 minutes or so to get?


Scamming is crappy and adds no value to the game.

Nobody wants more telemarketer scammers calling them. Why would they want to deal with it in game?

[Hood]

WOP scamming seems to be fun, accepted, and okay as long as the price of the WOP isn't high. Other than that I can see no reason to scam anyone for all the reasons listed by others above.

[ShieldBreaker]

The developer's rights to ensure the growth and continued existence of the game, override anything else. If people put that in jeopardy by creating a toxic, unfriendly climate in the game, the developers have to step in and curb that behavior with any means necessary. There is roleplaying, but they got to make sure people are having fun. WOP is more of a prank then a scam, unless I missed something. So it comes down to impact, the bigger the impact on the player base the more likely the devs step in. I think there is a broad category in one of the EULA or Code of Conduct, that would cover this, a don't go wrecking it for everyone kind of thing.

[Hood]

WOP is more of a prank then a scam, unless I missed something.


How do you scam?

Idk....To the scammer, its just a prank but to the prankee/scammee, its a prank if you know the person really well and a scam if you don't.

Confusing, bc this is the only example I could come up with on how to scam someone in PG without getting banned. Unless someone starts a pyramid scheme with ingame people and resources. Although, would you consider overpriced goods a scam?

[Grobyddonot]

Let me start off on this foot first, I do not condone scamming nor would I ever partake in it. I believe it is a very untrustworthy thing to do, it's morally (game-wise) wrong to do, and it tarnishes your name beyond belief if found out or caught.

But should it be considered a punishable offense by administration? No, I do not think so.


And /thread. What's the point? If someone wants to scam other people, let them.


The developer's rights to ensure the growth and continued existence of the game, override anything else. If people put that in jeopardy by creating a toxic, unfriendly climate in the game, the developers have to step in and curb that behavior with any means necessary.

LOL.


There is roleplaying, but they got to make sure people are having fun.

Rofl. Make up your mind already, is it RP and freedom and letting people have fun their way or is it just a bannable offense. violation.

So far, the developers don't make sure that players are having fun all the time, hence the decline in online numbers. Please note, no great scammers in the game yet. Scammers are not the greatest evil, infact people should not give their valuables to any strangers. that's like the rule # 1.

[ShieldBreaker]

Idk....To the scammer, its just a prank but to the prankee/scammee, its a prank if you know the person really well and a scam if you don't.

Confusing, bc this is the only example I could come up with on how to scam someone in PG without getting banned. Unless someone starts a pyramid scheme with ingame people and resources. Although, would you consider overpriced goods a scam?

Okay assuming that what you are talking about is like someone asks for a teleport to crypt word, and someone replies here use this. And it is a death word or sickness word. Or some say oh look I got a Sword XP word, anyone want here it is, and the first person who says it finds out it is a death word instead. This is the sort of thing you mean right?

I actually can think of other scams that could be used that would rob players and would be hard to detect, but I don't want to give people ideas. A less effective scam would be to sell any item that looks like another item for the higher valued items price. If someone did it once, they could claim it was a mistake, repeated use would be obvious. This would require a person accepting a trade for the bad item, without double checking what they are getting. But someone determined to do it would keep trying till they got someone. This behavior is more likely while the game is free, because there is no cost to being banned. Once you have to buy the game it will be less likely for people to risk scamming, but it won't go away 100% no matter what.

[Hood]

@ShieldBreaker (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/member.php?u=22) Ah, yes that would be much more serious. A scam is used to greatly benefit more than just the scammer's mood.



And /thread. What's the point? If someone wants to scam other people, let them.
.....Rofl. Make up your mind already, is it RP and freedom and letting people have fun their way or is it just a bannable offense. violation.

First of all, let's all acknowledge that conflicting opinions can still function together. I agree with this statement, Grobyd. I think they should be able to do it, but of course, they shouldn't be surprised when players treat them poorly afterward. Should it be a bannable offense? We can't say that every kind of scam is excusable and undeserving of a ban. They vary in severity. That's the mods' job though. To evaluate the offense and decide if its bannable. It's not the community's decision, thankfully.


So far, the developers don't make sure that players are having fun all the time, hence the decline in online numbers. Please note, no great scammers in the game yet. Scammers are not the greatest evil, infact people should not give their valuables to any strangers. that's like the rule # 1.

I agree again. Players need to be careful or they could be tricked into losing something that might be valuable to them. I think the only other thought I have to say in this thread is that scamming people in a video game is not serious, but it is a lame and childish source of entertainment.

[ShieldBreaker]

....

Rofl. Make up your mind already, is it RP and freedom and letting people have fun their way or is it just a bannable offense. violation.

So far, the developers don't make sure that players are having fun all the time, hence the decline in online numbers. Please note, no great scammers in the game yet. Scammers are not the greatest evil, infact people should not give their valuables to any strangers. that's like the rule # 1.

There was no indecision they have to take steps against those that seek to wreck the fun of the majority. Probably the first steps would only be a warning.

The game is in alpha, and doesn't have a complete set of game play content yet. They are still trying to work out the systems underpinning the game. It doesn't take that long to max out your main skills. Not even sure you are right about decline in online numbers, I don't have absolute proof either way. You might even know that evidence you have witnessed indicates that the player base is growing, but that doesn't matter you just want to be negative for some reason. So you are saying trusting people are a greater evil than thieves. Victim blaming at its finest.

[FURY]

Seems like this is alot of talking for the sake of talking, eh?

Unless there was some giant rash of scams recently that I missed I don't see how this could be a problem atm, the second the scammer logs in again most people will know as this is a fairly small community at its core. We know each other. Anyways, its fairly easy to combat: dont give away your stuff unless you are trading for what you want...this is basic MMO stuff here.

PS: You can never really know what you are getting when buying a WOP until you use it. Part of the song and dance of using them, so you really shouldn't expect that something useful will come out of that unless you know the person, even then they might prank you. :P

PPS:
So far, the developers don't make sure that players are having fun all the time, hence the decline in online numbers. Please note, no great scammers in the game yet. Scammers are not the greatest evil, infact people should not give their valuables to any strangers. that's like the rule # 1.

Not to be mean, but you haven't been around awhile. A few months ago there were only 10-30 people online at times, short term it may seem like there are less people but its a increase overall, this happens after every large patch.

[Grobyddonot]

So you are saying trusting people are a greater evil than thieves. Victim blaming at its finest.

Yes, without going into much detail, because it's partly their own fault.


The game is in alpha, and doesn't have a complete set of game play content yet. They are still trying to work out the systems underpinning the game. It doesn't take that long to max out your main skills.


Doesn't matter, because...




Unless there was some giant rash of scams recently that I missed I don't see how this could be a problem atm, the second the scammer logs in again most people will know as this is a fairly small community at its core. We know each other. Anyways, its fairly easy to combat: dont give away your stuff unless you are trading for what you want...this is basic MMO stuff here.


And /thread again. Fury won. :P





PPS:
Not to be mean, but you haven't been around awhile. A few months ago there were only 10-30 people online at times, short term it may seem like there are less people but its a increase overall, this happens after every large patch.

Nah, was a bit more than 30, I was here a couple of month ago. 10-30 @ times, no wonder, every early morning online falls to 30-40. I was judging by 30-100-200-150-100. nvm tho, we'll see.

It's ok to be mean to me, I'm a grown up, I can handle it. =)

[alleryn]

Convince some one to give you items, in return you'll make some thing for them with those items or come back with some thing different.

Verbal contracts are not binding in the continent of Alharth.

Seriously i don't think something like this should be bannable. We don't want to teach people to be too naive or they'll start sharing their passwords and things will really go south.

Always ask for collateral for your materials if you are asking someone you don't trust well to craft them for you.

[Gervase]

Yes, without going into much detail, because it's partly their own fault.



Doesn't matter, because...




And /thread again. Fury won. :P





Nah, was a bit more than 30, I was here a couple of month ago. 10-30 @ times, no wonder, every early morning online falls to 30-40. I was judging by 30-100-200-150-100. nvm tho, we'll see.

It's ok to be mean to me, I'm a grown up, I can handle it. =)



Seems like this is alot of talking for the sake of talking, eh?

Unless there was some giant rash of scams recently that I missed I don't see how this could be a problem atm, the second the scammer logs in again most people will know as this is a fairly small community at its core. We know each other. Anyways, its fairly easy to combat: dont give away your stuff unless you are trading for what you want...this is basic MMO stuff here.

PS: You can never really know what you are getting when buying a WOP until you use it. Part of the song and dance of using them, so you really shouldn't expect that something useful will come out of that unless you know the person, even then they might prank you. :P

PPS:

Not to be mean, but you haven't been around awhile. A few months ago there were only 10-30 people online at times, short term it may seem like there are less people but its a increase overall, this happens after every large patch.


The threads purpose was to see how people felt about scamming and it's place within this game. It wasn't directed at preventing it - or to alert others of it.

Beyond that, I provided my own opinion on it which entailed that I think people can choose their play styles and shouldn't be punished for it via Moderators / Game Masters.

Personally, I'd rather the community work together and continue to be trusting of one another. It's -extremely- pleasing (For me at least) when I ask for X service, Player A offers, I meet with them and trade them what they need - and a few minutes later a product is delivered. I've done this -so- much that I no longer worry about having my items taken and nothing given in return, which pretty much triggered my thought about scamming.

[Khariel]

If you want to get yourself completely frozen out of the player run economy, go right ahead.

Scamming a person will only hurt them in the short term. You on the other hand, you will hurt for a long time. You might be able to get away with scamming people on a huge game like World of Warcraft if you lay low, but in a game with such a small community? You might as well be playing a single player game if you give yourself a reputation as a scammer.

[Spiritfingers]

I believe there is a lot of room for scamming in this game. I have never had that problem. In my over 2 years of playing this game, I've never given mats to someone I didn't know hoping I get back what they promised. I've only given mats to people on my friends list and in my guild. I trust them both and never had a doubt I'd get back what they promised.

There are a lot of new players coming to this game so I can see scamming happening more and more. Is it something you ban? I can't say yes to that. It's always up the the buyer to beware. I'd say if people are running the same scam over and over towards players, I'd say take put them on a banned list. And that banned list should be something everyone can view.

[Crissa]

Con artists using OOC chat should be banned. Period.

(Words of Power are not scams, they're pranks.)

[Spiritfingers]

Con artists using OOC chat should be banned. Period.

(Words of Power are not scams, they're pranks.)

So you are saying that a person should be banned because they were able to get a complete stranger to trust them. Is it the game's responsibility to save us from ourselves? As I said, I do believe in banning people whose soul purpose is to scam. I have no idea how to check that. It's also why I mentioned that I only trade mats to guild mates and people on my friend list.

Now if you are talking about someone who only wants to scam - then I 100% agree with you.

[Grobyddonot]

Rip rogue and thief classes.

not that they are in the game, but they never will be with a community banning everyone they do not like.
Also, rip roleplaying.


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG

Well, i guess not an RPG anymore.

[Khaylara]

@OP I recommend reading the Terms of Service, this thread shouldn't exist.

Also nobody griefs or scams and gets away with it. The community doesn't ban but excludes people who attempt to be dishonest.

[Crissa]

So you are saying that a person should be banned because they were able to get a complete stranger to trust them. ...And then were total asshats? Yes.


Rip rogue and thief classes. ... Also, rip roleplaying.Scamming ≠ Roleplaying. Anyone who says they are the same is, in fact, an asshat.

Roleplay implies consent. Asshattery is non-consentual.

Learn the difference.

[Easylivin]

Rip rogue and thief classes.

not that they are in the game, but they never will be with a community banning everyone they do not like.
Also, rip roleplaying.



Well, i guess not an RPG anymore.

You can always work on the troll skill

[Hood]

This entire thread is about something that hasn't happened & isn't our responsibility to manage. It's difficult for me to articulate my meaning here, but I think it's enough to say that there is a difference between Crowd-sourced and Crowd-funded. Some of us here have given money to see the success of this game...or just the continued development of it.

It's crowd-funded. We don't design the game. We don't get to decide what's allowed and what's not allowed. We don't get to dictate the ethics of the moderation team. This game isn't crowd-sourced. We get to play it.....it's freakin' free to play for now. Trust the moderators to decide and to do their job. Sure, you can share your opinion, but you'll never make the rules and you'll definitely never make the decisions.

[Grobyddonot]

...And then were total asshats? Yes.

Scamming ≠ Roleplaying. Anyone who says they are the same is, in fact, an asshat.

Roleplay implies consent. Asshattery is non-consentual.

Learn the difference.

Rogues and Thieves are dishonest by default, but you won't know it until you get betrayed/scammed at least once. That's the whole point and that is how they survive.

What the hell are you talking about? It's not sex, what consent? I can roleplay whatever I want by the Serbule Well and no player will stop me. Roleplaying is something you don't have to get the permission for. If you don't want to participate, fine, no ones forcing you, lol. But you still can be betrayed/scammed any time, because this is how tough the life is. And you don't get to tell other players what they can and can't do in the game. Get over it.




You can always work on the troll skill

I'm not.

[Khariel]

There's a massive difference between roleplaying a scam, and carrying out an actual scam.

A roleplay scam requires two people who are actually roleplaying. You can't be roleplaying with somebody who isn't roleplaying and still call your actions in character, because if the other person isn't roleplaying then in character they do not exist. That is the only way that you can possibly handle being Grabthar the Unclean in a world where Yugejonsen can also be a name. (example names are examples. I have not seen these names in this game, though Grabthar the Unclean was a character played by a friend of mine.)

A roleplay scam also usually doesn't actually scam anybody. In character you run off with their gold pieces giggling at their stupidity. Out of character you hand over the item if there was even an exchange at all.

Good roleplay is telling a story, that requires a certain degree of cooperation from people, which you won't get if you're using "I'm in character" as a security blanket to be a complete dick.

[Grobyddonot]

Yeah, you discribe a table D&D, not a videogame. In a videogame you don't describe what you're doing, you're just doing it and that's the roleplay. Hell this is what the entire 3D enviroment is for, skip the talking, go straight to doing.

If I have to talk, describe and write down stuff to actually roleplay in a videogame, why do I need a videogame? I can do that by playing any RPG irl, per skype, etc.

[Spiritfingers]

My entire point is why would anyone trust a stranger with their hard earned mats to make them something. Not just in PG - in any mmo. At the very least, a person should join a guild and ask that guild to make their item. It wouldn't matter to me if a person was roleplaying or actually scamming me.

[alleryn]

My entire point is why would anyone trust a stranger with their hard earned mats to make them something. Not just in PG - in any mmo. At the very least, a person should join a guild and ask that guild to make their item. It wouldn't matter to me if a person was roleplaying or actually scamming me.

I agree. What would make sense to me is the person doing the crafting pays in councils for the mats. Then the other person pays the crafter for the finished product. This way there is no chance to scam.

[Spiritfingers]

I agree. What would make sense to me is the person doing the crafting pays in councils for the mats. Then the other person pays the crafter for the finished product. This way there is no chance to scam.

That is the fairest way to make the deal work. The only problem is the economy in PG is so raw, it's hard to say what the value of mats are and what the value of a finished product is.

[Crissa]

Anyone who pretends 'roleplay' means running off with someone's stuff without consent - isn't a roleplayer. They're an asshat.

Roleplaying requires active, enthusiastic consent. Presence is not consent.

[alleryn]

Anyone who pretends 'roleplay' means running off with someone's stuff without consent - isn't a roleplayer. They're an asshat.

Roleplaying requires active, enthusiastic consent. Presence is not consent.

Tell that to the icon that appears on my screen telling me i forgot the concept of the number three! I didn't consent to that! Well... i suppose i shouldn't have died :p

[Khariel]

Yeah, you discribe a table D&D, not a videogame. In a videogame you don't describe what you're doing, you're just doing it and that's the roleplay. Hell this is what the entire 3D enviroment is for, skip the talking, go straight to doing.

If I have to talk, describe and write down stuff to actually roleplay in a videogame, why do I need a videogame? I can do that by playing any RPG irl, per skype, etc.

All roleplaying, whether around a tabletop, or on a screen, is telling a story. You might only be telling it to yourself, or to whoever you're doing it with, but you're still telling a story.

If you were an actual roleplayer, and not just using it as an excuse to justify an action that should not be taking place, you'd know that.

Again, you need cooperation to do any kind of roleplay. For instance, lets say you're playing an assassin. If you want to try to kill somebody, you have to either type out the action, or the person you're trying to kill has to either meet you in the PVP dungeon, or drink pvp punch. If you don't have cooperation on the typing out the action, they can ignore you completely, and nothing was accomplished. If you don't have cooperation on the actual stabbing in game, well, you can't exactly stab them now can you?

Cooperation is absolutely essential to any kind of roleplay in or out of game.

[Grobyddonot]

All roleplaying, whether around a tabletop, or on a screen, is telling a story. You might only be telling it to yourself, or to whoever you're doing it with, but you're still telling a story.

If you were an actual roleplayer, and not just using it as an excuse to justify an action that should not be taking place, you'd know that.

Again, you need cooperation to do any kind of roleplay. For instance, lets say you're playing an assassin. If you want to try to kill somebody, you have to either type out the action, or the person you're trying to kill has to either meet you in the PVP dungeon, or drink pvp punch. If you don't have cooperation on the typing out the action, they can ignore you completely, and nothing was accomplished. If you don't have cooperation on the actual stabbing in game, well, you can't exactly stab them now can you?

Cooperation is absolutely essential to any kind of roleplay in or out of game.

If I want to roleplay an Assasin or PvP, I go and play a PvP online game, PvP MMO or a MOBA.

I agree with cooperation in roleplaying, it makes roleplaying so much better, but it's not a must. You can still tell the story by yourself to yourself, just as you said.

[Spiritfingers]

I went back and re read the OP since this whole thread seems to be moving towards a RP reasoning behind the scam. Since some people can't let this go I will say this. If people can play evil characters and can scam at will the game should be set up with a punishment system (jail, etc). I don't know of any law abiding society where you can be evil with no consequence - role playing or not.

[Khariel]

I went back and re read the OP since this whole thread seems to be moving towards a RP reasoning behind the scam. Since some people can't let this go I will say this. If people can play evil characters and can scam at will the game should be set up with a punishment system (jail, etc). I don't know of any law abiding society where you can be evil with no consequence - role playing or not.

I agree completely.

And, if you can be in character and steal from somebody without their consent, then whoever is roleplaying the local constabulary should be able to throw you into the jail without yours. Assuming there aren't guards who would do that.

Can't have it both ways.


Other games have had crime systems that will flag you if you break the law, whether it's stabbing people, or picking pockets. The in game guards would then turn on you. And you might be able to take one or two, maybe even three... but not 20.

So, if we are to permit in character scams that actually scam people, and don't require active willing participation, then we need guards who will beat down the thief, lock them up, and return the stolen goods. Also without active willing participation.

[Grobyddonot]

I agree completely.

And, if you can be in character and steal from somebody without their consent, then whoever is roleplaying the local constabulary should be able to throw you into the jail without yours. Assuming there aren't guards who would do that.

Can't have it both ways.


Other games have had crime systems that will flag you if you break the law, whether it's stabbing people, or picking pockets. The in game guards would then turn on you. And you might be able to take one or two, maybe even three... but not 20.

So, if we are to permit in character scams that actually scam people, and don't require active willing participation, then we need guards who will beat down the thief, lock them up, and return the stolen goods. Also without active willing participation.

Yes, totally. But first, you have to catch the thief, second you have to make sure the goods were not sold/wasted/spent/whatsoever. Otherwise, jail time only if you catched the thief while hes flagged as criminal. Usually no more than 15 minutes after commiting a crime tho, so good luck. Cause you can't really put someone, whos not there, in the jail , and you can't return something that doesn't exist.

[Khariel]

Yes, totally. But first, you have to catch the thief, second you have to make sure the goods were not sold/wasted/spent/whatsoever. Otherwise, jail time only if you catched the thief while hes flagged as criminal. Usually no more than 15 minutes after commiting a crime tho, so good luck. Cause you can't really put someone, whos not there, in the jail , and you can't return something that doesn't exist.


What I'm getting at, is that unless there is a system in place to deal with the behavior in game beyond simply shunning the scammer, the behavior should not be allowed by any standards, in or out of character.

[alleryn]

Nobody in the real world goes to jail for the kind of scamming outlined by the OP. If someone comes up to you and tells you they'll gladly take the brocolli you're carrying home from the grocery store, cook it up, and bring it back to you, sure they've technically entered into a verbal contract with you.

Gut if you hand over the said broccoli, never see the guy again, and try to get recompense through the court system, chances are you're not gonna have a lot of luck.

Admittedly this is an online game, and with chat logs it's probably easier to enforce that kind of thing than it would be in the real world, but i'm on the side that people should have some common sense. If they get scammed like that, they earn a lesson in protecting their own interests and not trusting people blindly.

[Crissa]

Nobody in the real world goes to jail for the kind of scamming ...

Gut if you hand over the said broccoli, never see the guy again, and try to get recompense through the court system, chances are you're not gonna have a lot of luck.No. It would be against the law. Someone scamming old people and taking their food would be arrested. And thrown in jail.

It doesn't matter if they convinced them to hand over their stuff. It's still illegal to promise and run off.

Asshats like to be cops and they like to be lazy. So they often don't protect old people from scammers like these. But it's still illegal.

[alleryn]

No. It would be against the law. Someone scamming old people and taking their food would be arrested. And thrown in jail.

It doesn't matter if they convinced them to hand over their stuff. It's still illegal to promise and run off.

Asshats like to be cops and they like to be lazy. So they often don't protect old people from scammers like these. But it's still illegal.

Maybe in the suburbs people get arrested for this... I really doubt it...

[Khariel]

Maybe in the suburbs people get arrested for this... I really doubt it...

Theft is theft, even if you convince them to hand it over.

Usually it takes something of greater value to get the cops interested, but legally, anything between a certain value range is the same crime.

[alleryn]

Theft is theft, even if you convince them to hand it over.

Usually it takes something of greater value to get the cops interested, but legally, anything between a certain value range is the same crime.
I never argued it wasn't illegal.... i only ever said you wouldn't go to jail for it... so thanks for helping prove my point.

[Crissa]

That cops are lazy doesn't, in fact, prove that you won't go to jail for stealing candy from a baby.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114301025

[Elenoe]

Theft is theft, even if you convince them to hand it over.

Usually it takes something of greater value to get the cops interested, but legally, anything between a certain value range is the same crime.
depends. If you "convince" them by force or threat of force it's not "a theft" anymore. It become extortion which actually is much serious crime no matter if you succeeded or what you got from it.

Not sure how it's where you live, but here (Czech Rep.) cops NEEDS to be interested in anything someone reports. They can't just say "we don't care". They need to investigate and they need to report it. It will be concluded, that theft (or scam) caused damage below (around $200), they say it's not a crime, it's just an offense. You can't go to jail, but they send that file you local administrative where you live and you have to pay a fine (with other consequences, especially if it's not your first one) ).

Scamming and griefing in the game is bad. It does nothing to do with RP. RP assasins do choose their target between characters whos players agreed to (usually by RPing in the same group). If RP character scams another character but that player reports it as a scam. Then it's not RP anymore and the player need to bare consequences. It's easy to tell them apart. Because if you scam someone as RP player you can always say when you talk to other character complaining and solving it in RP way or you pissed off the player (RP NEVER do that as a goal) and he wants things returned. There is no excuse in "being RP assasin/thug who randomly kills/scam other players - not characters".

If you find scam/griefing fun. Ok. Just find someone who agrees with the same thing and play together. Otherwise, face the punishment for ruining other players (not characters) gameplay.

In other words: players are always more important then characters.

[Tsugumori]

Let me start off on this foot first, I do not condone scamming nor would I ever partake in it. I believe it is a very untrustworthy thing to do, it's morally (game-wise) wrong to do, and it tarnishes your name beyond belief if found out or caught.

But should it be considered a punishable offense by administration? No, I do not think so.

Untrustworthy? It's a completely scummy thing to do. "Name tarnishing" means nothing to the player base as a whole because if you don't know the names of a player's alts they can just scam and swap chars. In my experience would-be scammers care very little about the fallout afterwards. That said, there is talking points for both sides.

- Against Scamming: It's shit, if it happens to a player its very demoralising, it doesn't send a positive message about the community as a whole since we'd all be lumped in together.
- For Scamming: There are no positives for scamming, but some people would take the stance of 'if they were dumb enough to get scammed it's their own fault'. This is both profoundly true but sad. It's a double edged sword, I believe the PG community prides itself on it's community focused mentality. That's one of the draws of the game I like to think, new players joining the game see this and perhaps want to join in. For some I believe this lures them into a false sense of security.

I agree with some of the other comments above, Easylivin for one. "How do you scam?"

In my mind this means either:
- promising something but demanding to be paid first and never delivering. (i.e. getting mats/crafting stuff etc)
- cheating someone out of money by means of underpaying on purpose to a new player who knows nothing about item prices.
- asking to be paid for mundane things that warrant no payment whatsoever. (Answering questions in help chat etc)


I believe good players / people are just as much allowed as evil players / people. What do I think is allowed, and not allowed?

Not Allowed:
Hacking - Obvious reasons.
Exploiting - Obvious Reasons.
Harassment - In the form of, bringing things from the real world. I believe RP has it's place in a game like this.

Allowed:
Scamming - People like playing con artists.
Griefing - How ever you can do that, it should be allowed. While staying within the fair bounds of the game.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This isn't D&D or tabletop where you can stare a friend in the face as their alignment leads them to do you over and rob, murder or trap you. Being "evil" in PG denotes going against the very core of the community: Not being a dick.

I kind of feel like all of these things are fields away from scamming. Hacking is more like game abuse, rather than player abuse. Sure exploiting is like 'scamming the game' but even still. And like... Dude, seriously? Your take on harassment? If people want to bring shit from RL let them, and IGNORE THEM if you don't like it. If they want to talk about how they had a shit day and are glad to be on PG, LET THEM. We don't just dismiss people because they want to talk about their life. RP (role-play) does have a place in this game, I believe there is a chatroom for it though. Not in the world as a whole. Sure there are the death RP tabs, but that's a whole other thing. Maybe you didn't mean it in the way that I think but how you described it? Just, sigh.

There's a difference between being a con artist and just a shitty person. I'm a fan of the show Hustle, so I don't view playing an online game and essentially tricking people (in rather mundane ways I might add) to give you their stuff. I don't think scamming is essentially a bannable offense, but ostracize worthy? Definitely. This isn't minecraft - or a sandbox game - so griefing is minimal really. The only instance I can think of is interfering with other people while they forage or are grinding mobs.



Now like I said, I don't condone what I believe should be allowed - I dislike it, and wish people /didn't/ do it - regardless.. It should be allowed as I don't choose the play styles of others and have no right to ruin that for them so long as it is fair.

My question to you, the community and administration is this - Should this be a bannable offense? Is it a bannable offense? If it's not, what would -we- the players do about this. I'm just curious where every one stands on the topic.

I get that you don't condone it, and I get you don't like it. I think the vast majority of the community, or communities in general within online games, look upon it in an unfavourable light. Your indifference to it though... Cheating others, scamming, tricking - It's not something clever people do. It's what people who think they are clever do, when in fact they are actually just lazy. The main reason I've seen most people try to cheat others out of things is because they are too lazy to grind it themselves. Isn't that pathetic that at the core, the motivation is just utter laziness. I mean if you were nasty to someone, and they got you back by scamming you, that makes more sense in that there's a reason why it happened. Doesn't mean it's okay - just 'less not so'.

Maybe I seem a bit passionate or 'ranty' but before PG I'd been playing in another community where scamming was commonplace. It was one of the only ways to get a lot of money fast since so many people hoarded the currency. I never did it myself but came close to being scammed before the chancer tripped up talking to me. There was no moderation in that game, little to none at all. Scamming was a bannable offense but it was also hard to catch them since they were merely character bans, not account wide. (And players could have between 8 and 20 characters on an account depending on how many slots you unlocked.)

I think there should be some recompense, not necessarily bans. I'm trying to think of it from the point of view of someone banned. Being locked out of say a character instead of the account is quite punishing as is. That said, scammers would probably use alts instead of new chars. How the old community I was a part of combated it was by creating a list on the forums of trusted currency sellers, (since that was the main scam), in PG I guess it could be along the lines of new players asking the community in global if the player they are dealing with is legit. The counter to this being if a scammer has friends that vouch for them. To counter this I think bannable offenses should be put in place.

Once offs are one thing - you can come back from that and learn your lesson. Premeditating it with others though? GTFO of the game.

[Umber]

I actually am for it being allowed in game. It's a crazy thing I know, but I am with the OP in that hacking/stealing of cash value items (real life bank accounts, CC#s, SSNs, etc) is bannable and against the law.

In a game that does not allow the sale of virtual items for real life compensation, the value of what a scammer would take in game is, like it or not, zero.

It is one thing I liked about Asheron's Call, the game I previously played. You had to deal with the repercussions of your actions. So, the more you scam, the more infamous you become. The more infamous you are, the less likely it is people will make deals with or listen to you. There is a sense of community in games that do not allow name/race/servers changes that I like. You make a spot for yourself in that community, good or bad.

While I wouldn't RP nor advocate for scamming/thievery, I find it creates an interesting facet to the community. TLDR - Don't encourage it, but don't ban for it.

As much as someone may not like it, there is an RP aspect to thievery. I'm sure some are lazy, but if that's how they choose to play the game, that's how they choose to play it. If every player was cognoscente of what they were doing, these thieves would absolutely be left wanting.

That being said, can we make Tar and Feathering a skill? :D

[Elenoe]

In a game that does not allow the sale of virtual items for real life compensation, the value of what a scammer would take in game is, like it or not, zero.

There is really big misconception of what is worth "something" and what is worth "zero". I would suggest to really reevaluate that attitude. What do you thing "real money" are really worth that "not real" are not?

[Khariel]

If it has value in the game, it has value.

Regardless of whether or not it should be bannable, there must be consequences for bad behaviors. If there were a system for dealing with in game "crimes" other than reporting and getting the person banned, that would be one thing, but as it stands right now, there is no such system, so banning/suspending is currently the only way to get through to people that such things are not permitted.

In the anime Log Horizon, the council they set up dealt with crimes by locking criminals out of vital services. The game world also had a system in place to deal with players attacking players inside towns. The later is not a problem for this game, because there is no random pvp.

As far as I know, there hasn't been a huge scammer/thief problem in PG yet, and I sincerely hope that we never get to that point... but as I stated, unless they want to program in systems to deal with such things, I am a firm believer that it cannot be allowed to happen.

[alleryn]

Regardless of whether or not it should be bannable, there must be consequences for bad behaviors. If there were a system for dealing with in game "crimes" other than reporting and getting the person banned, that would be one thing, but as it stands right now, there is no such system, so banning/suspending is currently the only way to get through to people that such things are not permitted.

But there's as much a system in the game for dealing with such scamming as there is in the real world. Unless you contend with my point above that no one in the real world is going to get jail time for the type of scam outlined in this thread (take mats, give promise of crafted item in return, return nothing), the real world analagous punishment is the thief earns a bad reputation in his community.

That would be the same punishment that would occur in the game, as anyone who repeats this action would earn a bad reputation.

Creating alts is similar to a criminal moving to a new town and changing his name.

As i stated above, since this is a computer game, there is the possiblility of stricter enforcement of the law than in the real world. But there is very little incentive in the real world to become a scam artist (unless you count becoming a corporate attorney/CEO/stock trader being a scam artist..), and i don't see why there would be any more incentive in-game, so i'm not sure why people think bans would become necessary to dissuade this type of thing.

[Easylivin]

I don't want to derail the thread but while we are on the subject of bad ideas and raising our post count has anyone thought about characters getting terminal illnesses?

Maybe once a character is level 50+ or the player has spent at least a month in the game the RNG rolls and the player can get a terminal illness which results in the character being deleted within 10 days.

Thoughts? I wouldn't want my character to get an terminal illness but I think it could add to the game.

[Elenoe]

...

if you are in suicidal mood, just give gaming a break :)

Anyway, if you want something like that just write a macro that put an insult in the chat occasionally.

[Tsugumori]

I don't want to derail the thread but while we are on the subject of bad ideas and raising our post count has anyone thought about characters getting terminal illnesses?

Maybe once a character is level 50+ or the player has spent at least a month in the game the RNG rolls and the player can get a terminal illness which results in the character being deleted within 10 days.

Thoughts? I wouldn't want my character to get an terminal illness but I think it could add to the game.

Something tells me your days of easy living would be over, Easylivin. :cool:

[Hood]

I don't want to derail the thread but while we are on the subject of bad ideas and raising our post count has anyone thought about characters getting terminal illnesses?

Maybe once a character is level 50+ or the player has spent at least a month in the game the RNG rolls and the player can get a terminal illness which results in the character being deleted within 10 days.

Thoughts? I wouldn't want my character to get an terminal illness but I think it could add to the game.

I've actually thought a lot about this as well. I think terminal illnesses could bring a rich playstyle to the game. I love the idea that after a month of gameplay and hard work of reaching level 50+, a doom dice rolls and I have a chance to receive something deadly to my character. I do, however, think it needs some improvement.

Why wait until level 50? Many players would complain that this great feature has been hidden behind "gated content", Easy. It should be made available after Character Creation. I can imagine it in my mind. I create a character named HopeOfAlharth and appear on Anagoge Island. As I swing my blade at that second or third Dilapidated Skeleton, I gain a level in Sword and 1 in Unarmed (because I also slapped him first). The Doom Dice rolls, my screen flashes red, and the boss warnings scroll through HopeOfAlharth's skull. *You have Stage 3 Pancreatic Cancer*. Just as I'm about to Recall Circle to Serbule, my character grasps his side painfully and dies.

Hope.....

Yes, this could really add a lot to the game

[Umber]

If it has value in the game, it has value.

Regardless of whether or not it should be bannable, there must be consequences for bad behaviors. If there were a system for dealing with in game "crimes" other than reporting and getting the person banned, that would be one thing, but as it stands right now, there is no such system, so banning/suspending is currently the only way to get through to people that such things are not permitted.

In the anime Log Horizon, the council they set up dealt with crimes by locking criminals out of vital services. The game world also had a system in place to deal with players attacking players inside towns. The later is not a problem for this game, because there is no random pvp.

As far as I know, there hasn't been a huge scammer/thief problem in PG yet, and I sincerely hope that we never get to that point... but as I stated, unless they want to program in systems to deal with such things, I am a firm believer that it cannot be allowed to happen.

I think this comes down to belief and opinion rather than what is truely correct/incorrect.

From a legal stand point, a virtual item in a game that does not allow selling of items for real life cash does have zero value; tort requires harm done, generally in a financial sense. Losing something of 'zero value' (even if it has value to the owner/victim) will not hold up in a court of law, unfortunately.

That aside, I would agree that it is rude, mean, and aggravating. However, just because it is those things does not give me the right to scream, "BAN HAMMER!!!!1!". It's a different play style; one I don't condone, but just different. It does add a facet to the community that makes it more complex and interesting.

It is easy to protect yourself against scammers. It shouldn't be a problem if you pay attention to what you're doing.

It's all conjecture though since, as you stated, we haven't had a huge issue of it in game.

[Umber]

I don't want to derail the thread but while we are on the subject of bad ideas and raising our post count has anyone thought about characters getting terminal illnesses?

Maybe once a character is level 50+ or the player has spent at least a month in the game the RNG rolls and the player can get a terminal illness which results in the character being deleted within 10 days.

Thoughts? I wouldn't want my character to get an terminal illness but I think it could add to the game.


I get your point, virulently passive aggressive, but I get it.

Point is, it's your choice as a player to hand someone else your stuff on a promise or on good-will alone. A "terminal illness", as you put it, is not a players choice. While both have to do with losing something you worked for in game, they are not the same thing. A square is a rectangle; a rectangle is not a square.

[alleryn]

From a legal stand point, a virtual item in a game that does not allow selling of items for real life cash does have zero value; tort requires harm done, generally in a financial sense. Losing something of 'zero value' (even if it has value to the owner/victim) will not hold up in a court of law, unfortunately.
What are you basing this on? There seems to be a lot of precedent in U.S. Law that disagrees with this.

See, for example, https://casetext.com/case/national-un-v-harrington

"Mrs. LeBlanc cannot be restored to the position she was in before her home was destroyed. Monetarily, most of her property had depreciated. However, for her the value of her personal items appreciated more and more as time progressed. Such items like family photographs, her family Bible, the rosary she received when she made her First Communion, a teacup collection, items her husband had given her or built for her, are irreplaceable. "

[Umber]

What are you basing this on? There seems to be a lot of precedent in U.S. Law that disagrees with this.

See, for example, https://casetext.com/case/national-un-v-harrington

"Mrs. LeBlanc cannot be restored to the position she was in before her home was destroyed. Monetarily, most of her property had depreciated. However, for her the value of her personal items appreciated more and more as time progressed. Such items like family photographs, her family Bible, the rosary she received when she made her First Communion, a teacup collection, items her husband had given her or built for her, are irreplaceable. "

Trying not to get too off topic, but this is relating to Sentimental Values damages of personal property within the state of Louisiana. As a general rule, most courts throughout the United States hold that the proper measure of damages for lost or destroyed personal property is its market value, the theory being that the injured party should be made whole, by being able to buy items to replace the others in the current marketplace. That being said, these items are owned wholly by Elder Game LLC. and the Project: Gorgon team, making them, not a player's personal property.

Precedent always changes though. I do believe there have been court cases in Germany and the Netherlands that treat virtual items like real life items based on spending time and money to get them. Add to it that the game currently doesn't have a subscription fee and it's hard to make a case. That being said, don't wanna derail the thread on legal minutia.

It's about the merits of RPing of scamming/item thievery. Does it have a place or not? I think it's a good discussion so far anyway.

[alleryn]

Trying not to get too off topic, but this is relating to Sentimental Values damages of personal property within the state of Louisiana. As a general rule, most courts throughout the United States hold that the proper measure of damages for lost or destroyed personal property is its market value, the theory being that the injured party should be made whole, by being able to buy items to replace the others in the current marketplace. That being said, these items are owned wholly by Elder Game LLC. and the Project: Gorgon team, making them, not a player's personal property.

Precedent always changes though. I do believe there have been court cases in Germany and the Netherlands that treat virtual items like real life items based on spending time and money to get them. Add to it that the game currently doesn't have a subscription fee and it's hard to make a case. That being said, don't wanna derail the thread on legal minutia.

It's about the merits of RPing of scamming/item thievery. Does it have a place or not? I think it's a good discussion so far anyway.
Agreed, let's not derail it. But that doesn't mean i'm about to let you just have the last word because you said let's not derail it -- lol!

All of this "most courts" stuff is a pretty broad stroke. I took that link from some law firm's article that lists a number of other cases where the value to the owner was given precedence over an item's "market value":

http://www.butler.legal/something-oldsomething-new-the-availability-of-sentimental-value-damages-in-courts-throughout-the-united-states

[BetaNotus]

I've actually thought a lot about this as well. I think terminal illnesses could bring a rich playstyle to the game. I love the idea that after a month of gameplay and hard work of reaching level 50+, a doom dice rolls and I have a chance to receive something deadly to my character. I do, however, think it needs some improvement.


Getting back on topic, I also like this idea. Why restrict it to illnesses? Perhaps there could be a boss that temporarily, or permanently, removes one of your arms. A swordsman could become completely useless overnight, granting the player the exciting and fun experience of leveling a different skillset just to keep playing!

[Khariel]

I'm not saying you should be arrested in real life for scamming people in game. I don't know where that comparison came from, but it's completely irrelevant to the actual discussion.

An item in game has value in game, so if you steal it in game, you should be punished in game.

That clear enough for you?

Saying "Buyer beware!" Or "Why would you give your mats to a stranger? It's your own fault if you get scammed." is ridiculous. It's condoning a "playstyle" which shouldn't be even remotely thought of as a valid one except in games which have systems for laws and criminal acts. We should be able to trust other players enough to know that if we're requesting that they make us a helmet, that it will be made. It might not be the exact helmet we want due to the randomized nature of mods, but it should be crafted with the proper skill gems, and handed over. We shouldn't have to sit there and worry about being ripped off.

[Easylivin]

I get your point, virulently passive aggressive, but I get it.

Point is, it's your choice as a player to hand someone else your stuff on a promise or on good-will alone. A "terminal illness", as you put it, is not a players choice. While both have to do with losing something you worked for in game, they are not the same thing. A square is a rectangle; a rectangle is not a square.

I see where you are coming from with this. It would be the players choice to make a character and level. To avoid the terminal illness a player could not level and be fine.

[Easylivin]

Getting back on topic, I also like this idea. Why restrict it to illnesses? Perhaps there could be a boss that temporarily, or permanently, removes one of your arms. A swordsman could become completely useless overnight, granting the player the exciting and fun experience of leveling a different skillset just to keep playing!

This is a good point, 3 points on a triangle, http://i.imgur.com/PYleHMp.png

If we give the player the choice to fight the boss and have the option to get their arms removed then it makes it fun and exciting risk vs reward.

[Umber]

I see the constructive debate and feedback portion has been replaced with jocularity.

ISO healthy debate.

[Easylivin]

After additional discussion in-game terminal illnesses could be great.

Imagine an illness that makes your left arm weaker but right arm stronger. For example -3 damage with left arm attacks, but +3 damage to right arm attacks.

[alleryn]

I'm not saying you should be arrested in real life for scamming people in game. I don't know where that comparison came from, but it's completely irrelevant to the actual discussion.

An item in game has value in game, so if you steal it in game, you should be punished in game.

That clear enough for you?

Saying "Buyer beware!" Or "Why would you give your mats to a stranger? It's your own fault if you get scammed." is ridiculous. It's condoning a "playstyle" which shouldn't be even remotely thought of as a valid one except in games which have systems for laws and criminal acts. We should be able to trust other players enough to know that if we're requesting that they make us a helmet, that it will be made. It might not be the exact helmet we want due to the randomized nature of mods, but it should be crafted with the proper skill gems, and handed over. We shouldn't have to sit there and worry about being ripped off.
I'm assuming this comment was directed at me.

I don't think anyone suggested you ought to be arrested for in-game scamming. Someone suggested that the game required in-game punishment for scamming because no society allowed people to scam people without punishing them. Since there is no equivalent of an in-game jail (at least at present), we should ban scammers instead, went the argument.

My retort was that in the real world, no one goes to jail for scamming people out of their "real life materials" (unless it's some massive pyramid scheme; i'm talking about seeing someone in the street who says "here take this pile of wood and meet be back here with a dresser"). That kind of behavior is technically illegal, as it violates a verbal contract, but it never would actually result in jail time. What would actually happen as punishment is that the transgressor would earn a bad reputation ("That guy totally ran off with my wood and didn't bring me a dresser. If you are driving around in your pick-up with a big pile of lumber, you should find some other person to make it into an armoire.").

And yeah i think it's reasonable that you shouldn't just assume someone will follow through on an agreement. You should learn to protect yourself, not naively assume people are bound to some externally applied morality to do free service work for you just because you asked.

[BetaNotus]

After additional discussion in-game terminal illnesses could be great.

Imagine an illness that makes your left arm weaker but right arm stronger. For example -3 damage with left arm attacks, but +3 damage to right arm attacks.

I think you’d want it to be MainHand and Offhand, instead of left and right. It’s been mentioned that players may eventually be able to pick which side is their MainHand. That’s honestly not too damaging of a curse, I think it could easily be a simple or complex disease.

[Khariel]

I'm assuming this comment was directed at me.

I don't think anyone suggested you ought to be arrested for in-game scamming. Someone suggested that the game required in-game punishment for scamming because no society allowed people to scam people without punishing them. Since there is no equivalent of an in-game jail (at least at present), we should ban scammers instead, went the argument.

My retort was that in the real world, no one goes to jail for scamming people out of their "real life materials" (unless it's some massive pyramid scheme; i'm talking about seeing someone in the street who says "here take this pile of wood and meet be back here with a dresser"). That kind of behavior is technically illegal, as it violates a verbal contract, but it never would actually result in jail time. What would actually happen as punishment is that the transgressor would earn a bad reputation ("That guy totally ran off with my wood and didn't bring me a dresser. If you are driving around in your pick-up with a big pile of lumber, you should find some other person to make it into an armoire.").

And yeah i think it's reasonable that you shouldn't just assume someone will follow through on an agreement. You should learn to protect yourself, not naively assume people are bound to some externally applied morality to do free service work for you just because you asked.


If someone were contacted about making a dresser in the real world, and took off with the materials without doing the work, there would be real world consequences beyond simply getting a "bad reputation"

If the value of the materials was high enough, they would in fact go to jail. In addition to paying fines and restitution to the victim of the crime.

If you agree to do something, you do it. If you can't handle that, then don't agree to do the work. If you want payment for crafting something, say so (as a real world craftsman would.) If someone is advertising in general chat that they are making X item, mats + y councils, and someone approaches them to do it, there is a verbal agreement there, the craftsman is obligated to deliver. In that situation, they probably wouldn't get the money until the item was delivered, and it would be handled by the in game trading system, so there's little chance of anyone trying to cheat on the transaction, but even if they don't ask for a payment, they offered, or otherwise agreed to do the work, they should do it.

We don't have the in game systems to inflict an appropriate punishment upon people who don't, so the behavior cannot be considered acceptable. It's that simple. If/when we have a system for such things, then you can argue for buyer beware and all that crap. Until then stick to your word or be reported since that is the only available means of punishing a scammer at this time.

[alleryn]

If someone were contacted about making a dresser in the real world, and took off with the materials without doing the work, there would be real world consequences beyond simply getting a "bad reputation"

If the value of the materials was high enough, they would in fact go to jail. In addition to paying fines and restitution to the victim of the crime.
I just don't think you have an accurate idea of how the court system works. Maybe if the victim was a celebrity or politician, but otherwise good luck.

In my view all objects and labor in the game have value. For a crafter, the finished work has the value of the materials plus the labor. There is no reason transactions to make materials can't recompense that value at every stage. Pay for the mats, return the finished product for its value. Problem solved.

Edit:
What would actually happen as punishment is that the transgressor would earn a bad reputation ("That guy totally ran off with my wood and didn't bring me a dresser. If you are driving around in your pick-up with a big pile of lumber, you should find some other person to make it into an armoire.").

I just wanted to flesh out this example a little more. The pick-up truck thing is quite unrealistic, so here's a better example. You go to a small bed and breakfast and they offer you terrible service, don't change your sheets and bring you dirty towels the next day. Are the owners going to jail? I don't think so.

But you're going to write them a terrible review on yelp and their business is going to go in the toilet (particularly if they continue their bad practices).

Reputation is essential when running a business, so i think we already have a punishment system in place to deal with any potential scammers. Adding a layer to that by making scamming bannable feels unnecessary to me. Why remove a layer of immersion in a role-playing world when you don't have to?

[Crissa]

From a legal stand point, a virtual item in a game that does not allow selling of items for real life cash does have zero value; tort requires harm done, generally in a financial sense. Losing something of 'zero value' (even if it has value to the owner/victim) will not hold up in a court of law, unfortunately.This is blatantly untrue.

Just because something cannot be sold does not mean it has no value - that is libertarian dogma which is hogwash and unsupported by case law. That effort is taken to create something - that effort has value. That something exists and can be appreciated - that has value.

We assign value to lives (which we can't sell) even if they're infants with severe disabilities. We assign value to our pets, and more than replacement value.

Don't buy into libertarian nonsense that values everything only at its ability to be bought or sold.


You go to a small bed and breakfast and they offer you terrible service, don't change your sheets and bring you dirty towels the next day. Are the owners going to jail? I don't think so.Violating health and safety law is usually punishable by fines, but sometimes jail time. Violating contract - which they are, by not providing the service they promised - defaults to a felony. They might be violating even more laws, so it would depend upon the local laws on that sort of transaction.

And lastly, no, people do get arrested for taking off with materials and monies and not doing the work. http://www.veronews.com/32963_features/contractor-arrested-accused-of-bilking-remodeling-clients/article_a7b48af0-0d6a-11e6-88cc-9bd7651fc690.html

It's generally local news, and a civil issue rather than criminal, because it's not always as cut and dried as it can be in a game system where someone just waltzed off with a deal and there's actual logs of the event. Also, people would rather get their stuff than throw someone in jail.

[rastaah]

in the MUD I played (Dragonrealms) scamming if done in game in a roleplay manner (whether the other player understood or not) was considered ok BUT there was a huge huge down side for the scammer and here is what they were

1) You would normally end up with a huge bunch of good guys after you and kill you over and over and over :) You may even be forced to walk the starry road which meant perma character loss.

2) You were subject to sitting in a jail cell for a very long time and logging out and back in did not cure it. You were sitting there with the rule book.

3) You could be locked out of game for a few days but you could log in , again like I said, you were stuck in that room with the rulebook

But 'consent' was the key word. Consent...would be something like......If you trust the person you are consenting because you trusted them to do the trade so in that case you and your friends would have to handle it by hunting the guy down and giving player justice.

You could not kill people in that game without some form of consent, consent being either you scammed someone (and were now fair game) or you attacked someone or you taunted someone to attack you.

Hard to explain but it was most player and GM monitored and mostly in a RP manner. Was not any OOC allowed in that game though, at all, ever.

[Eachna]

The Doom Dice rolls, my screen flashes red, and the boss warnings scroll through HopeOfAlharth's skull. *You have Stage 3 Pancreatic Cancer*. Just as I'm about to Recall Circle to Serbule, my character grasps his side painfully and dies.

I have no idea if this is a joke or not but this is a very tasteless post.

[Eachna]

My retort was that in the real world, no one goes to jail for scamming people out of their "real life materials" (unless it's some massive pyramid scheme; i'm talking about seeing someone in the street who says "here take this pile of wood and meet be back here with a dresser"). That kind of behavior is technically illegal, as it violates a verbal contract, but it never would actually result in jail time.

You might want to read up about folks like "Irish Travelers" and "Roma" who end up in jail for the small petty crimes you're describing. Probably not with dressers ;). But mobile low-grade scams and cons.

You may also be confusing jail with prison. A deputy having a bad day can throw you in jail.



And yeah i think it's reasonable that you shouldn't just assume someone will follow through on an agreement. You should learn to protect yourself, not naively assume people are bound to some externally applied morality to do free service work for you just because you asked.

That's true, but in the real world there are consequences on both sides (to scamming and being scammed). In game, there are only consequences to being scammed.

You drive around with a pickup full of wood. Bob says "Hello alleryn I'll turn that wood into a fine dresser for you. Meet me here in 10 minutes." Bob takes the wood and doesn't deliver the dresser.

You see Bob on the street after he scams you. You can walk up to Bob, shove him against the wall, and threaten him. You can take his wallet out and remove his cash from it. You can punch him in the head for emotional satisfaction (if you're into that sort of thing). Just because it might be difficult to get Bob thrown in jail (unless you know a cranky deputy), that doesn't mean there aren't consequences for Bob.

In game, you can't do any of those things. All you can do is say on the chat channels "Bob is a scammer". If Bob creates a new character named Robert, you can't even warn people. Robert didn't scam you, you Bob did, and Bob is gone. It's not reasonable to accuse everyone with a similar name to a scammer of being a scammer.

Since in game you can't administer justice yourself, all you can do is ask the devs to do it for you.

[Dehrek]

Deviant behavior can only be permissible when consequences are possible.

Otherwise, what you have is an exploit.

[Lukasha]

"Deviant behavior can only be permissible when consequences are possible.

Otherwise, what you have is an exploit. "

Very True!

People who want to Grief and scam others always come up with ways to rationalize their behavior as ok. Griefing should never be allowed in this game. It adds no plus for the game. It only allows a certain few, who like to annoy others, a means to do it. Scamming is obviously not beneficial. Both of these things, if left unchecked, run off a good many customers who have the money to pay for the game, older people who want to just relax, and not be annoyed by a 13 year old (physical or mental age) player.

There exists no reason to allow it for roll playing. That is simply a reason the very, very, small percentage of players that want to do this, use to try and convince others their actions are respectable.

The same people that want this in game, IMO, are the same that think PKing an afk player is skilled PVP.

Games such as Archeage and Black Desert Online did not control these two items and PKing. They were allowed with little consequence for your actions. Older players, who have the money to spend, left the games after they progressed past the beginning phases of the games. Allowing these things without sever consequences also brings in a community that is just terrible. They do not help anyone, they give false information repeatedly, they do everything they can to disrupt and run other players off. I have never understood why either one of these games allowed it in the U.S., when the Korean versions had severe penalties for these actions.

[fobbyfabi]

If you're not actually breaking any in-game mechanics(hacking, duping, exploiting, etc.); I feel scamming people or being a general dick should not be punishable. You're not born obligated to be a nice person lol.

[Khariel]

If you're not actually breaking any in-game mechanics(hacking, duping, exploiting, etc.); I feel scamming people or being a general dick should not be punishable. You're not born obligated to be a nice person lol.

Exploiting the fact that there isn't a secure system in which you can put the materials into the window, and another person click the craft button to use your materials to make the thing you wanted (confirmed by you prior to crafting being done) is still exploiting. Just because it's a lack of a system instead of a bug doesn't make it okay.

I'll say again. Unless there is a system with laws, and a method of punishing lawbreakers in game, theft/scamming/whatever other name you want to give it cannot be permissible under any circumstances.

If those systems are ever put in place? Go for it! Until then, accept the fact that what you want to do is not allowed, and will be punished through external means.

[ANT3RA]

fobbyfabi what is your name in game?

I'll make sure to make a note of it.

[fobbyfabi]

Exploiting the fact that there isn't a secure system in which you can put the materials into the window, and another person click the craft button to use your materials to make the thing you wanted (confirmed by you prior to crafting being done) is still exploiting. Just because it's a lack of a system instead of a bug doesn't make it okay.

I'll say again. Unless there is a system with laws, and a method of punishing lawbreakers in game, theft/scamming/whatever other name you want to give it cannot be permissible under any circumstances.

If those systems are ever put in place? Go for it! Until then, accept the fact that what you want to do is not allowed, and will be punished through external means.

I'm still new to the game so I don't know all the nuances. If there is a glaring design issue that makes it easy to grief, then sure; have a rule against it or have it looked down upon. But generally, I don't think being an ass should be punishable, so long as you're not breaking game mechanics. I mean, c'mon... this isn't pre-school. I think it only helps the game, really.

I've never scammed anyone. I just don't like an environment where people are forced to act a certain way, I want some spice in my mmo.

[Crissa]

Being an ass is exactly what should be punishable. What else would be?

[Khariel]

I'm still new to the game so I don't know all the nuances. If there is a glaring design issue that makes it easy to grief, then sure; have a rule against it or have it looked down upon. But generally, I don't think being an ass should be punishable, so long as you're not breaking game mechanics. I mean, c'mon... this isn't pre-school. I think it only helps the game, really.

I've never scammed anyone. I just don't like an environment where people are forced to act a certain way, I want some spice in my mmo.

How exactly does stealing from people help the game in any way?

[Khaylara]

How exactly does stealing from people help the game in any way?

I think the people who are pro-scamming are RP oriented, they want to be "in character" playing thieves and whatnot. It's not against the rules but anyone who does it is pretty much excluded by the community.

I'm not a RPer myself but if some feels it adds to the immersion they can "scam" without actually pulling a shifty, pretend to pickpocket etc, that's harmless. Advocating for real scams though is not gonna go down well.

[Citan]

Since this thread seems to somehow just keep going, I figured I'd weigh in with some thoughts.

First, I don't want scamming in the game, where players lose items or valuables to other players due to trickery. That's a form of PvP, really: it's tricking another player and causing them misery for your joy. It's a terrible fit for this PvE game.

However, unless we're a crazy-huge success, I can't imagine having the personnel to deal with a huge number of scamming complaints. A few, sure, but a ton? No. So we'll need to do our best to make the game scam-resistant via tech. But that's often MUCH harder than it sounds, though -- for instance, letting people craft something with your materials, then give you the result, while making sure nobody steals anything or changes anything up in the process? VERY hard. Not on my immediate todo list. Maybe not happening ever. Instead, we've moved toward more scam-resistant game systems, like augment gems. Augmentation has that extra step in the middle of the process specifically to make it easier to trade them. In time I expect more systems to work like that.

And of course, when that fails, we'll just ban for griefing. I realize that right now, someone who's banned could just make a new account, but when we're on Steam and B2P, banning is a significant deterrent.

---

Lastly, I want to talk about the broader topic of "being a dick". Scamming is one way of being a dick, and it's not allowed. But there are a few ways of being a dick that ARE allowed. These are basically practical-joke level dickishness. They involve tricking other players, but they aren't scams, because there aren't huge or devastating consequences for the victim.

An example is poisoned food. You can poison food with iocaine powder and give that food to other players. They can eat it and DIE. That makes you a dick, but it's really not that big a deal to die in Project: Gorgon. Even if you're Hardcore Mode, you'd just go get your stuff. It's a prank.

Another example? Words of power. You can be a dick and trick people by giving them bad words of power. Trick somebody into dying with one? Ha ha, you're a dick, but it's okay. However, there are exceptions even here. Tricking newbies into saying a word of power that gives them Leprosy (a much worse fate than death)? That's not a practical joke: it might make the newbie unable to play until somebody cures them. That's way too dickish. On the other hand, tricking a level 100 player with leprosy? Eh... it's not as dickish because it doesn't impact them nearly as much.

Some people like to say "if the game allows it, it should be okay", but that attitude is how you get shitty, limited, boring, terrible games. For instance, bad names: we don't allow you to call people names in chat. You can exclaim "motherfucker!" once in a while, we don't mind that, but you can NEVER say "you're a motherfucker" to another player. It's true that the game technically lets you do it, but that's because the alternative would be horrible draconian chat filtering.

Another example? Stealing kills. A high-level player can follow a newbie around and steal their kills just for laughs. That's not a joke, it's griefing, and obviously against the terms of service. The game technically allows it because the alternative would be draconian locale-restrictions that would make the game suck.

The point is that I'm not making a game for children, so I'm not willing to take out all the fun things in the game just to prevent people going over the line. That means you can't use the notion of "if the game allows it, it's okay". If you go over the line, we'll just have to ban you, even though the game technically allowed you to do it.

I also realize that some people have a hard time with social concepts like "practical jokes". (I'm not being snide or sarcastic here -- it can be tough for some people.) If you can't tell the difference between a practical joke and griefing, you should avoid doing either so that you don't get banned. We're not going to try to list every possible joke, or where the lines are. If you don't think you can tell where the line is... just don't do it at all.

[cratoh]

However, unless we're a crazy-huge success, I can't imagine having the personnel to deal with a huge number of scamming complaints. A few, sure, but a ton? No. So we'll need to do our best to make the game scam-resistant via tech. But that's often MUCH harder than it sounds, though -- for instance, letting people craft something with your materials, then give you the result, while making sure nobody steals anything or changes anything up in the process? VERY hard. Not on my immediate todo list. Maybe not happening ever. Instead, we've moved toward more scam-resistant game systems, like augment gems. Augmentation has that extra step in the middle of the process specifically to make it easier to trade them. In time I expect more systems to work like that.




I know I'm always saying 'eq2 did blah blah this way' but... one thing they introduced over time was a consignment crafting system where, if i remember rightly, you opened a craft/trade window, and dropped the components in it, then the crafter would make the item, and the finished prouct ended up in the commissioner's pack. One thing that makes things hard with PG currently is, yes I do craft bulk stuff for peopel searching for the perfect mod set up, but they don't have any way of knowing how many tries you did or anything really. A craft/trade commission system would be most welcome!

[Khaylara]

I don't take pay for my crafting but can't you just give them all the resulted items? So they can see clearly how many attempts you had before a proc? I just do that, if people provide the mats I give them back everything i crafted + leftover materials.

[Crissa]

Oh, yeah. You could make a player work order system where the work order was 'provide ingredients' and 'provide crafting (ingredients already included)'.

So when you find a crafter and they say they can do a recipe, they could write a work order that's the recipe. Then you follow the work order, fill out the ingredients, and return it. Then when it's handed over, the crafter just has to show up and fill the skill requirements.

The work order system already exists! It'd even allow asynchronous deals, unlike the WoW or EQ ones.

[AngelTerri]

If you think to stoop low enough to scam someone for entertainment, I want nothing to do with you. Simple as that.

Let me expand on what I mean.

You need to mentally and willingly go into a game to scam a person or grief them. So purposefully going up to me and doing such is being an a-hole. And I will let you know that.

EverQuest was full of scammers back in the early days when people traded in the Commonlands Tunnel. There was no special lock trade window with extra protection. What scammers did was link an item into chat, which has a specific icon. Then when a person comes up to buy it, the scammer would quickly put another item in, usually a crappy item, that has the same icon as the linked item and quickly accept the trade, then log out.

That is being an a-hat as the scammer willingly and knowingly went to scam someone.

Griefing comes in many flavors. Players that grief others by killing mobs needed for others to finish quests. Players locking down entire zones or camps. Players who die over and over at a zoneline so others can't move or crash.

Griefing should have the consequence of a warning on first offense, temp ban on second, and ban on third. By them, one kinda should realize the griefer just is there to ruin the game for others.

In regards to scamming, it would mainly cover things for trading. But PG seems to have the added protection to a trade window, so switching for another item won't work. The worst scenario is someone running off with all the materials and not making the goods. I do like EverQuest 2's take on commission crafting, so the crafter gets the items, but the asker gets the result with no problem.