Balancing Skills Based On Difficulty

[Sasho]

My opinion is that the effectiveness of skills should be somewhat related to the difficulty of maintaining that skill.

We're in Beta so I expect much to change, but currently one of the strongest skills is psychology. It requires no weapon, no support skills to develop (e.g. alchemy/carpentry), no spell research (like fire magic/ice magic), no equipment (spore bombs/throwing knives), and yet it's probably the strongest skill in game.

Then there's archery which requires a bow, alchemy/carpentry/foraging/fletching/mining to make arrows, expensive beakers and fletching supplies, gathering loot like cat eyes/fulgurite/feathers/etc, giving 6 inventory slots for arrows, but doesn't have any distinct advantage over other skills.

Even cows lose the ability to talk to half of the NPC population, but hey at least they get lots of milk!

I see Wolf/Psych builds where players are doing well over 10k in one attack. There's Bard builds that solo Pask.

Should we expect to see any advantage or valuable characteristic to one skill over another because of the set backs to maintain it?

[Greyfyn]

In trying to parse this, the only thought that coalesced was, "Is this guy ordering oatmeal?"

A concrete response to your comment about psychology is that it does have a required second skill--Phrenology. Without which psychology loses impact. And psychology is not the strongest skill in the game, although it might be one of the most popular. However that's NOT due to its damage potential, but because it's fucking good support for any other skill. Any claims of sustained high damage are likely wrong. Whoa, unless some genius figured out how to make psych smack things like fire does.

So, I'm not certain what the point of the post here is, but I'm sure it will start something. :confused:

As to the oatmeal.... Here's a serving with maple syrup.

[Mbaums]

It is balanced on the difficulty to unlock and live with that skill. Minus maybe Necro. And the Lych/Psyc builds are strong because of how hard living life as a werewolf is. Some of the skills to get for psych don't fall in your lap, like 'But I love you 3' and it takes work to favor up specific NPCs. Also, Psych's low requirements is more to help animal forms than anything.


Archery is such a PITA. But wow is it strong. I'd never run it because of how annoying it is. You are firing councils when you fight and you must lose bag space to simply play your class. Biggest BS ever before I mention the time and resources per arrow.

Other examples are... Fire magic is balanced to be strong because it falls in the category of 'easy to start hard to finish', BC is balanced to be strong because it's not something most casual players can unlock in their first week or two (without help), and bard is not a walk in the park either. Before poetry slams Bard was the poster boy for annoying unlocks. Now it is work but not a lottery. You get a poetry jam (requiring multiple other players) and you work on flower arrangements.

I'm sure you still think Psych is crazy OP, and for 1 on 1 fights its an amazing secondary skill. But primary skill? Not so much. If it was, I would expect to see way more Psych/Mental or Psych/Staff builds at all. Instead, Psych/Mental is rarely used at all and is generally a healer build, and Psych/Staff however great for tanking, is a combo I've never seen done.

[INXS]

What they need to do is make fletching items attuned, so people can't spam archery to 70+ but don't bother with fletching, that's wrong. But then you got buckle artistry where you make hundreds of unsellable belts to get to lv 50, now Hammer skill if anything deserve a freaking bonus, the belts themselves meh should be tweaked a bit better.

[Niph]

Aren't you supposed to buy your arrows from the market if you don't want to learn Fletching? What's wrong with it?

[INXS]

Ok if I can buy arrows from the market why can't I buy a hammer buckle from the market, same thing . 2 craft skills tied to 2 combat skill, maybe Citan can enlighten us on the matter. Thanks.

[Niph]

Just my view of it but... You can play hammer without a buckle, it's just a bonus. It seems to go against the rest of the game, but then it's also just a different mechanic. All skills are different, otherwise it would be so boring!

[Greyfyn]

If you want all the skills to be "balanced," so that every thing is equal, it will be boring. Homogeneous. Like a bowl of oatmeal.

https://i.imgur.com/d3zw4sF.png

After putting over two years game-time on my character, I left WoW long ago because I woke up one morning and realized that now that I had mastered all the healer classes, they were all the same. The only difference was the names and the flashy graphic spell effects. It was completely possible at that time to categorize all the spells into a spreadsheet and set up every action bar so that the same kind of spell was in every slot for every skill. The ultimate in BORING.

I mean, you can take a bowl of oatmeal and mix it up. You can add raisins. Or use barley instead of oats. Barleymeal. You can add strawberries....

My point is that asking a dev to "FIX" the game elements so they are more "EQUAL," means you are asking for a degree of sameness. UGH!

Instead of asking the Dev to take time to once again explain his game theories, maybe coming up with a concrete set of possible solutions for the very specific problem of not being able to vendor buckles would be more useful. Definitely. Right now he's working on the next update and the social things are a distraction.

Here's an example: "Hey, it's really annoying to drop our crafted buckles all over the ground when we level. Would it be possible to have a golem to sell them to?"

So if this thread is going to turn into a gripefest, let's stop right now. Really. If you have some specific item that needs attention, put it in the ! button in game. Let the effort go to something worthwhile.

[BetaNotus]

Note that this is a combat-companion skill, not a crafting skill. It uses some crafting mechanics, but it's intended to be used by the individual hammerer, much like calligraphy or meditation is done by the individual swordsman or unarmed warrior. For that reason, it should be comparatively easy to level up, and there are no craft-skill prerequisites – you just need to complete some favors for Jake. (The recipes require various ingredients obtained from other crafting skills, but these can simply be purchased from other players in the future. May need more players before that part works though.)
Crafted belt buckles can only be used by the crafter – they are deeply personal emblems that are useless to others. - December 14, 2015 Patch Notes.

[preechr]

Ahhh... now I understand the "oatmeal" reference

[Crissa]

Balance ≠ 'all play the same'.

[Raviollius]

What they need to do is make fletching items attuned,

Please no, fletching is already the worst crafting skill moneymaking-wise.

[Sasho]

> If you want all the skills to be "balanced," so that every thing is equal, it will be boring. Homogeneous. Like a bowl of oatmeal.

First of all I don't like oatmeal. It's too heavy on my stomach. Second of all I don't want balanced skills. I said they should each provide different benefits based on their efforts to be acquired/maintained.

>After putting over two years game-time on my character, I left WoW long ago because I woke up one morning and realized that now that I had mastered all the healer classes, they were all the same.

Again, where did I say I wanted classes to be the same? Did you even read my post because I said the complete opposite.

>So if this thread is going to turn into a gripefest, let's stop right now. Really. If you have some specific item that needs attention, put it in the ! button in game. Let the effort go to something worthwhile.

Now you're just being mean :(

[Greyfyn]

Hi Sasho,

Here is the question as you posed it:
Should we expect to see any advantage or valuable characteristic to one skill over another because of the set backs to maintain it?

My interpretation of this question and the examples you gave, was that there was an assumption that this was not happening. Therefore the question as posed lends itself to a variety of gripes about things.

As the developer builds his game, I think this happens all the time. So yes, we can expect that. To expect otherwise would mean...boring oatmeal stuff.

Maybe you have some answers you expected to hear?

[preechr]

When it comes to questions/comments about certain skills, there’s basically two categories: People that use the skill in question and are making suggestions of how it could be “better,” and people that don’t use it, don’t understand it and just jealous of those that do

In terms of difficulty to master Psych is exactly as difficult to acquire as any other combat skill, and you have to master Phrenology as a combat helper skill just as other combat skills have combat helpers... there are training costs and books drops and grinding just like any other skill

You may not have to carry a specific weapon, but you have to have a Psych related something in your offhand, and that will give you attack bonuses just like any other skill

Like mentalism and beast forms (and to an extent unarmed, Druid and a few other skills) you have a choice in offhand weapon types so you could choose a shield for armor and it’s sidebar skills, a random weapon for whatever reason, or a crossbow for those attacks.... anybody can use spore bombs and throwing knives... not sure why you even brought those up

So, in terms of difficulty/expense and in terms of gear it’s basically the same as any other first tier combat skill, and synergizes well with some combat skills like all of them do

It’s not the best off hand for every build, though it’s not the worst for any either... It’s not particularly OP in and of itself, and even if there are specific combinations that include it that are known to be super-strong, they are known and this is beta

If I might make a suggestion: Focus on the skills you understand and make suggestions that help the skills you use to be better and more well-rounded

Just as in life, you will not get far worrying about what other people have... focus on getting what you want

Besides, there’s nothing stopping you from training up Psych yourself, but if it is as God-mode as you think don’t get mad when it gets adjusted just like all skills are subject to in this phase of development

[INXS]

Here's an example: "Hey, it's really annoying to drop our crafted buckles all over the ground when we level. Would it be possible to have a golem to sell them to?"

Done this in game using ! many times but how many times you think i can suggest before it becomes annoying? No response nothing, nah it's hammer again we got what 5 people playing that skill forget it.