Objective Analysis of PG for now.

[Grobyddonot]

Hey. Keep in mind that this is still my opinion and it can't be entirely objective. No hate on the game and the developers. IK that the game is in Alpha and that the development team is small. (If you don't like the "water" feel free to skip parts of this wall of text).

Why are we playing games in general? To have fun, to relax, sometimes to get away from reality, maybe even to be sportsmanlike and competitive.
Old, experienced gamers love to bitch about modern popular games: "Too simple, too expensive, unfinished, too p2w." But it's quite rare that someone goes like "Oh, this game is no fun" and they don't play it at all. Still, most "successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games" (c) this Forum, are "successful" and "Massive" for a good reason. They are fun to play! (please make no mistake, "massive" means hundreds of thousands of players and not 1.5-2k. Even Warcraft II still has a great community of at least a couple of hundreds of fans.) But I got carried away, back to PG.

Let's strip PG. Project Gorgon is a grind game, it's the core. Be it favor, councils, resources for crafting, whatever. Grind is not bad in general, some people love it (Hello Korean MMOs). It's important to keep in mind that just like most of the games, this one is a repetitive game too. You simply must kill hundreds or thousands of the same kinds of mobs to raise the skills, collect the stuff to gain favor, craft, etc. In order to make the grind game "successful", the grinding process has to be fun. If you're a developer, one of the certain ways to make sure that your game is fun to play is to play it yourself on a normal character going through all of the grind, bugs, exploits and experiencing it all yourself. The other way is the feedback, which I'm giving to you right here and right now. So...

Is Project Gorgon fun to grind and play? There is no objective answer to that question, but PG has certain major drawbacks that take all the fun out of it.
The new player experience is amazing. Anagoge and Seruble are fun to play through, they're full of content, you learn the game, nothing prevents you from having all the fun in the world. The Eltibule is also great in terms of content and fun, but that is usually the point where you start to learn about some of the flaws. It's not like they do not exist in Serbule, you're just busy exploring and having fun for the first time there, so you just ignore/skip them. But we'll not concentrate on Eltibule because it's just the start of the game, it'll get better. It has to.

Does it tho? Better? Certainly not. Starting with Kur and to Ilmari and Rahu you begin to explore huge parts of map filled with nothing, but that is not that much of a problem. The game is still in Alpha and the dev. team is small. Facts are a good thing, but there's also this fact: the fun is slowly diminishing, when you have to run for 3-5 minutes to reach another chunk of "content" every time. Yup, every time. Theres a teleportation skill and theres a trick with dying's skill "enter the light" that allow you to select one distant teleportation pad. Not helping you much tho, because you'll still have to run around quite a bit. After the grind, you eventually lvlup your Teleportation skill and can bind an Alternative Circle. Wooho! Not so fast, player. Go grind the favor first, then for other gems (Aquam.) and only then you'll be able to bind it. You know what, also some sort of useless scroll (that Rakhasa use as a source of warmth during the cold nights, lol) and only then you'll be able to teleport to it. Btw, that "useless scroll" is not that easy to find, so good luck. Or maybe you'll just travel using your feet? Because every single time you use the "Recall alternative circle" it'll consume 2 gems and the scroll. What is more efficient in terms of your time? You might think I'm saying that the teleportation skill is the major drawback, but i'm not. Teleportation is far from the best, but you can live with that, because after hours of grind you'll have enough scrolls and gems not to bother much about it. This is just an example of grind that takes a tiny bit of the fun away for me. Not critical, but "-fun" adds up. If you think yourself, "Ha, that's not even hard, grobyd is a *****, man up and go grind", let me tell you that the game will not allow you to grind in Kur, Ilmari and Rahu while having much fun. This is a PvE game after all, kind of.

The core is the AI. The mobs are stupid. The entire strategy of the mobs is to "Chaaarge! Release Spirit!" (old mem). Seriously, they charge you all the time and kill you or die, that's the whole AI. Some bosses are a bit smarter, they have ranged attacks, they don't have to charge you, they just stay in one place until they die. Brilliant. The most retarded habit the mobs have is to suicide. They do not care if you're a full geared lvl 70+ and they are lvl 5 or 10, they're still going to charge you, while feeling vurnable and die in one hit, any hit, without causing any trouble. All they do is annoy you while you're peacefully travelling through the world. You might think, that one of the major, critical instincts living things have is the survival instinct. Pfff, you were wrong. Main instinct is to charge anything that passes by and die. Is it fun? No, it's not. And while not causing any trouble that is just bad AI. It's also constatly reminds you that it's just an artificial videogame, you don't feel like the world and creatures in it are truly alive. No immersion.

Let's put AI aside and talk some game design decisions. As this is a PvE game, with a rather awful AI atm (Alpha, hope is not dead yet), the enviroment tried to create some problems for you. You're not a god, you're not a superhero in PG, unfortunately theres no telling what kind of a pathetic weakling you are. As a fat chain smoker IRL I'm able to hold my breath under the water for much longer than 20 seconds. How come a combat-trained weakling can't hold it for even a minute? Also, and the bodyfat is a huge advantage here, but still, I do not freeze to death in winter in under 2 minutes while smoking on the balcony. How come the physically ACTIVE weakling, who is running and fighting and jumping does? And I've experienced the temperatures way below zero in the northern parts of the world, but look, I'm still alive. But yeah, I wasn't fighting panthers there who gave me bananas and lemons, but nvm. Last, but not least is the dehydration mechanics. Well, this one is just useless. I mean all the players ignore the dehydration completely, it's either happening too slow to even pay any attention to it or you come by an oasis and restore it. Let's sum those mechanics up, shall we?

Breathing: Do not mine/fish under the water if the target is too far away or simply ignore it. Eat +health food +first aid and you'll reach anything anyway. After all you can jump your way over the water, Jesus.
Kur/Cold: Simply annoying, because all it forces you to do is to go into the Kur Tower/Yeti Cave/Wolf Cave and grind there. Plus when you get out, even after half a second, you have the full heat bar again, your journey continues. Use 1 log to light campfires for up to 30 minutes or if you absolutely have to, (but why bother?) make campfires.
Ilmari/Rahu/Heat: Ignore it. Did you even know what it does when it drops to 0? You can't run anymore and that's about it. While you should actually die from dehydration, but nvm.
So all 3 above are @ most just annoying and sometimes taking all the fun out of the game, instead of contributing to any kind of immersion.

Kur Mountains, are unique. My "favorite" place in the game. Not only the cold mechanics (new one, but the old one too) are taking away all the fun from the game, but it also gives you underwater motherload mining nods, plus some of them are so deep/high in the mountains that they gltch and spawn in the textures and you can't mine it at all. Not even with the select next non combatant target. Oh, I absolutely love wasting my gaming time in Kur.

Ilmari has little to no monsters when online is over 100. Not that it has any decent spawns (except the lab rakhasa village) when the online is 20, they're just way too scarce, scattered throughout the location. Desert you say? Well, there is a huge area in the middle of Rahu is filled the mobs, but then again, aside from them and Pask there's nothing else to do there yet. And sadly, it's not even rewarding to kill them. If you manage to kill them and they won't run away because of the pathing bug. Gosh.

I won't even start describing the lack of the diminishing debuff mechanic, story (lore), discussing the gui, skill cap gating, the graphics and other "work-in-progress" stuff. Mostly because I don't care about graphics, I prefer the fun gameplay, but somehow as the game progresses it's less and less fun to play...

And the perfect example of this is the latest decision (which is truly bad) to make the Mutated Toes out of combat bonus only. Developers don't really play their game, so they may think that this change isn't that critical and much of a deal, but wait a second, combined with the AI and freezing mechacs it just completely destroyed, ruined, vaporized, etc all the fun in things like Kur Surveying. It's not like Surveying in other locations is ok, it suffered too. Less and less fun in this game with each and every patch.

Do you know why changes like that are critical? Because we don't have all time in the world to play the game, time is our most precious resource and there are other fun games in this world. So if it comes to a point where I have to choose between brainless grind of anything to freeze less in Kur or Gazluk to grind again for more stuff just to maybe get/craft stuff to maybe have some fun sometime later and playing any "have fun right nao!!11!" game, guess what I'll choose. If you think that I'm the only player who thinks that way, you're mistaken. True, this game has no real ads, but it's on youtube, has posts about it on reddit and lots of mmo websites. Somehow I don't see thousands of players here. Put it other way, out of thousands of players who tried this game (or were checking it out), 5-10% if not less stayed. That's if you take the 200-300 online, which is not even true atm.

Most people don't play videogames for 8 hours a day, if they have 3-4 hours, they certainly don't want to grind that much to make the freezing to death process a bit slower. One would expect, that will levels and recipes you get much less of a weakling who can't resist some snow, but nope. The power ups and power scaling in this game with levels is non-existant. Get better gear, you peasant. Though even the thickest, warmest set of armor in this game won't allow you to grind mobs in Kur for even an hour! hour? Half an hour! Not even half an hour!!! And you will grind for hours for it.

So, question is, are the players all that bad and stupid and can't appreciate great games or maybe the game is going a bit of a wrong direction, because all of the fun is being taken out of it?

Theres more stuff to talk about, but this post is long enough as it is. One day, maybe, I'll make another post about other stuff, if i'll still be playing the game that is literally almost no fun anymore, because all I have to do now is grind. And grinding takes time, real time and I'm not even sure i'll get the full return in "power-ups". Because on top of all that, random crafting is the best thing in the world. Not even after crafting a 100 items I'll certainly have a decent piece of yellow equipment I'll be able to enchant. Meh, that's 200 gems. That ~2 hours of surveying only. Thank you, Eric, again, very much for making Mutated Toes out of combat bonus only with this AI. And as for alchemy potions.. I'm not sure I want to grind ingridients for an hour to survey for 1.5 hours after that. If only the potions would last for an hour or a couple of hours and not for 2-10 minutes... Yup, another game design flaw, grinding for potions (ingridients) takes much longer than the positive effect of the potions lasts...


P.S. do not post replies like "they're trying to make it more real". The Distant Stars are closer to the earth than PG is to reality. Plus, even if it was almost like irl, why would I want to have/enjoy/play it? I got Real Life for that kind of stuff. it's a videogame for god's sake, let me have fun.

P.S.2. Don't get the new races hype either. The game will remain the same but you'll fly? (fairies). Play as a bat, lol.

[kell.shepherd]

Dude.. they're trying to make it more real.

[Spiritfingers]

Interesting how you said this is your opinion but put others down for playing the game the way it was made. Sounds like a I quit post to me. Good luck to you.

[kell.shepherd]

Seriously though..

Kur: while I hate the cold dynamic it is more of a nuisance. I can just tell myself that the mountain wasteland is just THAT cold. Having lived in some of the colder regions of Canada it is easy to believe that a few minutes of extreme cold will mess you up.

Mutated Toes: I agree on this one. If my toes are actually mutated then they should still give a speed boost regardless of combat or not. They don't mutate, un-mutate, mutate again cuz a mob is nearby and taken a liking to my tenderloins.

AI: I can't think of a single game ever where the mobs didn't suicide on you and I've been playing games since Pong. MMOs, RPGs, FPS.. can't think of one. At best, I've seen where mobs who were once red and aggro when the level range was closer will ignore you when the level range got too wide. Usually in those cases you get diminishing returns on the XP as well.

Alpha is alpha so I see the game as it is now and can see the potential. I can forgive the bare areas knowing I have more to look forward to.

[Silvonis]

Basing an argument on this statement: "Developers don't really play their game" when it is not true certainly detracts from your overall message. I plan on responding further at a later point, but I thought it was important to nip that in the bud sooner rather than later.

I do want to mention, Grobyd, that I often notice that in-game chat you are mostly negative and harsh on the game in general. It is one thing to have constructive critisism but is totally another to be cynical and I think that sometimes you skate that line too much. Why am I bringing this up? Just because, to me, it taints feedback when someone seems to be negative on almost everything while never really highlighting anything they like. Are there areas that you do enjoy - if so, what? I'd love to know more so I can get a better understanding where these other criticisms are coming from.

[Tagamogi]

I think the problem with the Extra Toes mutation is that it gives battle chemistry players a decided advantage over players that have chosen to level other skills. So, I can see how it not working in combat anymore is a way to lower that unfair advantage a bit, even if it's not precisely logical. (Maybe you need some concentration to make all your extra toes work correctly, and being in combat means you lose your focus?)

I did some surveying in South Serbule last night and yeah, it felt kind of stupid. With the new aggro range, I kept getting put into combat by something or the other, and then had to decide whether I should keep going, or turn back to try to find the mob that was putting me in combat, so I could one-shot it and then wait a bit more to actually go out of combat once I killed it.

I think once some of the aggro ranges get dialed back a bit, it should be fine, but then we are back to the problem of why can I do faster surveys as a battle chemistry/shield player than someone who has chosen to level necromancy and mentalism instead? I'm definitely interested in seeing what the devs come up with to solve that.

I like the idea of a better mob AI - I assume it will happen at some later stage in the game. At one point in the game, I encountered a really weird bug that made deer sometimes run away and sometimes attack me [not the usual doe/buck/rabid difference], and it was actually really neat not to be able to tell how a particular deer would react when I attacked, even though it looked just like the previous deer. I'd love some kind of randomized personality within the same mob type like that.

I'm not sure how I feel about lower-level mobs not aggroing on higher-level players. It did feel a bit like bug-swatting last night, but how trivial should it be for a high level to walk through a low level zone? I don't know.

[ Oh, and unlike the opening post, I'm having a blast in the game right now. I'm just jumping in here because I find the game balance problems very interesting. ]

[alleryn]

I can't comment on most of this, as i haven't been to Kur or beyond yet, but i will say that i think the Mutated Toes change was very good (and i'd just spent all my money leveling battle chemistry and unlocking Toes).

It was overpowered and would allow you to run through monsters while foraging/surveying. Now at least there is some incentive to path strategically to avoid fights rather than just cruise through them. It added a layer of complexity, which i like.

[Khaylara]

As much as I dislike Grobyd (putting it mildly) his opinion is not singular.

"So, question is, are the players all that bad and stupid and can't appreciate great games or maybe the game is going a bit of a wrong direction, because all of the fun is being taken out of it?".

Personally I think the heated tone of his post takes away from the message, I think the message is accurate for many players (I've seen so many new players coming and most/many of them leave sadly). He did make few valid points that are worth looking into. Yes, Serbule and Eltibule are older zones, polished and much more fun (not just for newbies, I still hang out in those zones a lot). Yes, Ilmari and Rahu are a mess, the placeholder mobs in Rahu are annoying as, we have no storage in Amulna etc. I think in time they will become fun too but it might take years and- even though in general terms the community is more mature and patient than in other games-how many of the current newer players will still be around to experience the finished version?

PS Unlike Grobyd I really hate teleporting as it is now. For players (cause we might be testing but it is actually a playable game and most consider themselves players) all these small annoying things add up and count when it comes to the overall experience.

Of course I like the game otherwise I wouldn't have been around for so long but at some point the negative aspects turn my game time into half an hour fun+3 hours boring, tedious things (like managing inventory and storage) and at some point I lose the will to log in because it starts to feel like a job. I thought if I had extended breaks I'd feel differently but I don't, I log back sometimes just to talk to my game friends.

[kell.shepherd]

Starting to get away from the general topic but yes, Toes is very powerful. Yes, BattleChem is very powerful. But.. the original idea of BattleChem was that it is an advanced skill for advanced players and wasn't supposed to be unlocked till lvl 50 Alchemy. So sure.. it's 'unfair' and sure.. it's powerful but it's designed to be powerful and it's your choice to play what skill combos you want. Want speed? Go BC. Want minions? Go necro or Animal Handling. Want tankiness? Go Cow. It's those choices that make Gorgon so fun for me.

[grumpygamer]

Hey. Keep in mind that this is still my opinion and it can't be entirely objective. No hate on the game and the developers. IK that the game is in Alpha and that the development team is small. (If you don't like the "water" feel free to skip parts of this wall of text).

Why are we playing games in general? To have fun, to relax, sometimes to get away from reality, maybe even to be sportsmanlike and competitive.
Old, experienced gamers love to bitch about modern popular games: "Too simple, too expensive, unfinished, too p2w." But it's quite rare that someone goes like "Oh, this game is no fun" and they don't play it at all. Still, most "successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games" (c) this Forum, are "successful" and "Massive" for a good reason. They are fun to play! (please make no mistake, "massive" means hundreds of thousands of players and not 1.5-2k. Even Warcraft II still has a great community of at least a couple of hundreds of fans.) But I got carried away, back to PG.

Let's strip PG. Project Gorgon is a grind game, it's the core. Be it favor, councils, resources for crafting, whatever. Grind is not bad in general, some people love it (Hello Korean MMOs). It's important to keep in mind that just like most of the games, this one is a repetitive game too. You simply must kill hundreds or thousands of the same kinds of mobs to raise the skills, collect the stuff to gain favor, craft, etc. In order to make the grind game "successful", the grinding process has to be fun. If you're a developer, one of the certain ways to make sure that your game is fun to play is to play it yourself on a normal character going through all of the grind, bugs, exploits and experiencing it all yourself. The other way is the feedback, which I'm giving to you right here and right now. So...

Is Project Gorgon fun to grind and play? There is no objective answer to that question, but PG has certain major drawbacks that take all the fun out of it.
The new player experience is amazing. Anagoge and Seruble are fun to play through, they're full of content, you learn the game, nothing prevents you from having all the fun in the world. The Eltibule is also great in terms of content and fun, but that is usually the point where you start to learn about some of the flaws. It's not like they do not exist in Serbule, you're just busy exploring and having fun for the first time there, so you just ignore/skip them. But we'll not concentrate on Eltibule because it's just the start of the game, it'll get better. It has to.

Does it tho? Better? Certainly not. Starting with Kur and to Ilmari and Rahu you begin to explore huge parts of map filled with nothing, but that is not that much of a problem. The game is still in Alpha and the dev. team is small. Facts are a good thing, but there's also this fact: the fun is slowly diminishing, when you have to run for 3-5 minutes to reach another chunk of "content" every time. Yup, every time. Theres a teleportation skill and theres a trick with dying's skill "enter the light" that allow you to select one distant teleportation pad. Not helping you much tho, because you'll still have to run around quite a bit. After the grind, you eventually lvlup your Teleportation skill and can bind an Alternative Circle. Wooho! Not so fast, player. Go grind the favor first, then for other gems (Aquam.) and only then you'll be able to bind it. You know what, also some sort of useless scroll (that Rakhasa use as a source of warmth during the cold nights, lol) and only then you'll be able to teleport to it. Btw, that "useless scroll" is not that easy to find, so good luck. Or maybe you'll just travel using your feet? Because every single time you use the "Recall alternative circle" it'll consume 2 gems and the scroll. What is more efficient in terms of your time? You might think I'm saying that the teleportation skill is the major drawback, but i'm not. Teleportation is far from the best, but you can live with that, because after hours of grind you'll have enough scrolls and gems not to bother much about it. This is just an example of grind that takes a tiny bit of the fun away for me. Not critical, but "-fun" adds up. If you think yourself, "Ha, that's not even hard, grobyd is a *****, man up and go grind", let me tell you that the game will not allow you to grind in Kur, Ilmari and Rahu while having much fun. This is a PvE game after all, kind of.

The core is the AI. The mobs are stupid. The entire strategy of the mobs is to "Chaaarge! Release Spirit!" (old mem). Seriously, they charge you all the time and kill you or die, that's the whole AI. Some bosses are a bit smarter, they have ranged attacks, they don't have to charge you, they just stay in one place until they die. Brilliant. The most retarded habit the mobs have is to suicide. They do not care if you're a full geared lvl 70+ and they are lvl 5 or 10, they're still going to charge you, while feeling vurnable and die in one hit, any hit, without causing any trouble. All they do is annoy you while you're peacefully travelling through the world. You might think, that one of the major, critical instincts living things have is the survival instinct. Pfff, you were wrong. Main instinct is to charge anything that passes by and die. Is it fun? No, it's not. And while not causing any trouble that is just bad AI. It's also constatly reminds you that it's just an artificial videogame, you don't feel like the world and creatures in it are truly alive. No immersion.

Let's put AI aside and talk some game design decisions. As this is a PvE game, with a rather awful AI atm (Alpha, hope is not dead yet), the enviroment tried to create some problems for you. You're not a god, you're not a superhero in PG, unfortunately theres no telling what kind of a pathetic weakling you are. As a fat chain smoker IRL I'm able to hold my breath under the water for much longer than 20 seconds. How come a combat-trained weakling can't hold it for even a minute? Also, and the bodyfat is a huge advantage here, but still, I do not freeze to death in winter in under 2 minutes while smoking on the balcony. How come the physically ACTIVE weakling, who is running and fighting and jumping does? And I've experienced the temperatures way below zero in the northern parts of the world, but look, I'm still alive. But yeah, I wasn't fighting panthers there who gave me bananas and lemons, but nvm. Last, but not least is the dehydration mechanics. Well, this one is just useless. I mean all the players ignore the dehydration completely, it's either happening too slow to even pay any attention to it or you come by an oasis and restore it. Let's sum those mechanics up, shall we?

Breathing: Do not mine/fish under the water if the target is too far away or simply ignore it. Eat +health food +first aid and you'll reach anything anyway. After all you can jump your way over the water, Jesus.
Kur/Cold: Simply annoying, because all it forces you to do is to go into the Kur Tower/Yeti Cave/Wolf Cave and grind there. Plus when you get out, even after half a second, you have the full heat bar again, your journey continues. Use 1 log to light campfires for up to 30 minutes or if you absolutely have to, (but why bother?) make campfires.
Ilmari/Rahu/Heat: Ignore it. Did you even know what it does when it drops to 0? You can't run anymore and that's about it. While you should actually die from dehydration, but nvm.
So all 3 above are @ most just annoying and sometimes taking all the fun out of the game, instead of contributing to any kind of immersion.

Kur Mountains, are unique. My "favorite" place in the game. Not only the cold mechanics (new one, but the old one too) are taking away all the fun from the game, but it also gives you underwater motherload mining nods, plus some of them are so deep/high in the mountains that they gltch and spawn in the textures and you can't mine it at all. Not even with the select next non combatant target. Oh, I absolutely love wasting my gaming time in Kur.

Ilmari has little to no monsters when online is over 100. Not that it has any decent spawns (except the lab rakhasa village) when the online is 20, they're just way too scarce, scattered throughout the location. Desert you say? Well, there is a huge area in the middle of Rahu is filled the mobs, but then again, aside from them and Pask there's nothing else to do there yet. And sadly, it's not even rewarding to kill them. If you manage to kill them and they won't run away because of the pathing bug. Gosh.

I won't even start describing the lack of the diminishing debuff mechanic, story (lore), discussing the gui, skill cap gating, the graphics and other "work-in-progress" stuff. Mostly because I don't care about graphics, I prefer the fun gameplay, but somehow as the game progresses it's less and less fun to play...

And the perfect example of this is the latest decision (which is truly bad) to make the Mutated Toes out of combat bonus only. Developers don't really play their game, so they may think that this change isn't that critical and much of a deal, but wait a second, combined with the AI and freezing mechacs it just completely destroyed, ruined, vaporized, etc all the fun in things like Kur Surveying. It's not like Surveying in other locations is ok, it suffered too. Less and less fun in this game with each and every patch.

Do you know why changes like that are critical? Because we don't have all time in the world to play the game, time is our most precious resource and there are other fun games in this world. So if it comes to a point where I have to choose between brainless grind of anything to freeze less in Kur or Gazluk to grind again for more stuff just to maybe get/craft stuff to maybe have some fun sometime later and playing any "have fun right nao!!11!" game, guess what I'll choose. If you think that I'm the only player who thinks that way, you're mistaken. True, this game has no real ads, but it's on youtube, has posts about it on reddit and lots of mmo websites. Somehow I don't see thousands of players here. Put it other way, out of thousands of players who tried this game (or were checking it out), 5-10% if not less stayed. That's if you take the 200-300 online, which is not even true atm.

Most people don't play videogames for 8 hours a day, if they have 3-4 hours, they certainly don't want to grind that much to make the freezing to death process a bit slower. One would expect, that will levels and recipes you get much less of a weakling who can't resist some snow, but nope. The power ups and power scaling in this game with levels is non-existant. Get better gear, you peasant. Though even the thickest, warmest set of armor in this game won't allow you to grind mobs in Kur for even an hour! hour? Half an hour! Not even half an hour!!! And you will grind for hours for it.

So, question is, are the players all that bad and stupid and can't appreciate great games or maybe the game is going a bit of a wrong direction, because all of the fun is being taken out of it?

Theres more stuff to talk about, but this post is long enough as it is. One day, maybe, I'll make another post about other stuff, if i'll still be playing the game that is literally almost no fun anymore, because all I have to do now is grind. And grinding takes time, real time and I'm not even sure i'll get the full return in "power-ups". Because on top of all that, random crafting is the best thing in the world. Not even after crafting a 100 items I'll certainly have a decent piece of yellow equipment I'll be able to enchant. Meh, that's 200 gems. That ~2 hours of surveying only. Thank you, Eric, again, very much for making Mutated Toes out of combat bonus only with this AI. And as for alchemy potions.. I'm not sure I want to grind ingridients for an hour to survey for 1.5 hours after that. If only the potions would last for an hour or a couple of hours and not for 2-10 minutes... Yup, another game design flaw, grinding for potions (ingridients) takes much longer than the positive effect of the potions lasts...


P.S. do not post replies like "they're trying to make it more real". The Distant Stars are closer to the earth than PG is to reality. Plus, even if it was almost like irl, why would I want to have/enjoy/play it? I got Real Life for that kind of stuff. it's a videogame for god's sake, let me have fun.

P.S.2. Don't get the new races hype either. The game will remain the same but you'll fly? (fairies). Play as a bat, lol.

This post is anything but objective. It casts aspersions at MMO players and the players of this game. It uses simple broad, absolute language to describe personal feelings. Things are "major drawbacks," "take all the fun out of the game," or are dumb, stupid, truly bad and awful.

With no transition you generalize about all MMO players and then ask, it seems rhetorically, if the game is going in the wrong direction. You then state in a back-handed manner that the players who are enjoying this game must be bad and stupid and don't appreciate great games.

You end in a flourish of grandiosity stating how much more you could go on about your dislike of the game due to the grind and directly and sarcastically call out the lead developer by name. In a moment of true narcissism you imply that the changes he's made are somehow designed to lessen your enjoyment of the game directly.

Lets sum up your feelings:
You don't like the grind
You don't like the travel times
You don't like the swim mechanics (and think they can be exploited)
You don't like the AI (and think is it too simple)
You don't like how much time it takes to level, play, skill-up (you think most players don't have this much time to play)

You feel players who enjoy this game are too "bad and stupid" to enjoy a "great games"
You feel the game is headed in the wrong direction
You feel that the lead developer is making changes specifically designed to lessen your enjoyment of the game

Most importantly, since the feelings you have above are all negative you then describe them all as "game flaws" rather than personal opinion.

Maybe this isn't the game for you? Further, this may not be the community for you, either.

[eikona]

...snip...
Because we don't have all time in the world to play the game, time is our most precious resource and there are other fun games in this world.

...snip...

I'm a very new player still, so I haven't been anywhere but the newbie island yet, but I wanted to take a moment to reply to this post. To this line right here. I have in recent years seen this line and its equivalent stated by many players in many games. "I work all day I don't want to work in a game.."

It is the very fact that I see this rant that makes me interested in this game. I am tired of modern MMOs. I want to work for my achievements. I want my achievements to matter. I remember when leveling in a game actually meant something and had to be worked for - playing badly used to mean you might not level at all! And 2-5+ minutes to travel from one location to another was once a matter of course! I remember regional economies that sprung up thanks to long travel times, and I think the loss of those was a real blow to immersion and interest/fun level. Bone chips, anyone? :) (As an aside, I really can't wait to get off this newbie island *shakes fist at feet dragging husband* to go dumpster diving in vendor stashes again..)

I haven't experienced these zones so can't speak to the actual experience of them yet. But now I am even more excited to go and see them. There are plenty of games that cater to instant gratification and everyone gets all the shinies as a matter of course mentalities. I'm interested in games that don't hand everything to me, and there are precious few of those.

This post would have been far more helpful if you had taken the time to do more than just complain. If it's not fun, what changes might make it more fun? What is fun? Most of what you are complaining about here sounds like a blast to me.

[alleryn]

Great comment, eikona. Your sentiments about working for progress really resonated with me.

[Hood]

A Subjective Criticism of A Game I don't Enjoy and Think People Who Do Can't Like What I Don't Like for now

[drivendawn]

....... I did want to write something long but just can't because of how extremely objective the OP's post was. Basically though this is an old school game with old school elements and if that bothers you, well play one of the many other games out there that does the here's Ma prize for nothin.

[cr00cy]

That wasnt very objective analysis... It looked more liek rant to me. I get it taht soem thigns migth be annoying. At first i was annoyied by cold mechanic chancges too. But i got used to it, since game offers you ways to work around it. Cold gear, cold mitigation skills/potions. And now i find myself actualy enjoying fact that i cant just ahve bis gear, and go anywhere and own anything. I have to actualy make preparations.

[Spiritfingers]

There is a long term rant going on by the OP. I think the only way he'd be happy is for the the game to completely go back to what it was in 2013. Letting so many people into an alpha is always a danger. People get used to a certain way things are being done and then it radically changes. Now you've got unhappy vets. This thread alone helps me to understand why game companies only used to invite family and friends to alphas.

[Khaylara]

Grobyd is actually fairly new that's why I pointed out that yes, he's an extreme case but he might not be the only one thinking along those lines. Not everyone is so angry over a game but we have to think that people who form a first impression similar to Grobyd's might not rant but might also move on. Take his rant with a grain of salt and try to read between the (rude) lines.

[Spiritfingers]

Grobyd is actually fairly new that's why I pointed out that yes, he's an extreme case but he might not be the only one thinking along those lines. Not everyone is so angry over a game but we have to think that people who form a first impression similar to Grobyd's might not rant but might also move on. Take his rant with a grain of salt and try to read between the (rude) lines.

The biggest complaints I've heard from new players is they are stuck because game isn't a linear questing game and the lack of inventory can be frustrating. OP's was a whole new level from new player experiences. I agree, though, that first impressions are very important to a game if player retention is to be high. When I first started, my first impression of the game was a complete lack of knowledge and feeling a bit lost (I'd never played a sandbox before). What helped me grow initially was the strong community PG has.

[ProfessorCat]

Pulled from Google definition
"An objective perspective is one that is not influenced by emotions, opinions, or personal feelings - it is a perspective based in fact, in things quantifiable and measurable. A subjective perspective is one open to greater interpretation based on personal feeling, emotion, aesthetics, etc."

I think you meant to use "subjective" . If you chose better ways to word your post, it might be an easier pill for the readers to swallow.

A popular saying comes to mind. If you don't offer a solution, you don't have a problem.

[Grobyddonot]

Right, let's skip this


Is Project Gorgon fun to grind and play? There is no objective answer to that question...

and discuss the personality and negativity. Love this community.

Nvm. Solutions:

Make Endurance skill give following bonuses every 10 levels.
+10 body heat
+5 breath
+5 Dehydration

Or every 25 levels:
+20 body heat
+10 breath
+10 dehydration
+1 Movement speed

Because as of now, I don't feel rewarded when I max out a skill. Also, would be nice to add Run/Acrobatics, whatever skill, that will increase your movement speed.

Also, if you kill the mutated toes, nerf the movement speed of the cows too.

Other option is to make ALL gear have useful bonuses by default that scale with lvl. As in higher lvl item = higher bonuses. That is +movement speed on all boots/shoes, +body heat on all pieces, etc.

Best case scenario would be to add all of it. That way I will feel rewarded with 70 endurance and 60-70 level items.

[FURY]

Make Endurance skill give following bonuses every 10 levels.
+10 body heat
+5 breath
+5 Dehydration

Or every 25 levels:
+20 body heat
+10 breath
+10 dehydration
+1 Movement speed

Because as of now, I don't feel rewarded when I max out a skill. Also, would be nice to add Run/Acrobatics, whatever skill, that will increase your movement speed.

Also, if you kill the mutated toes, nerf the movement speed of the cows too.

Other option is to make ALL gear have useful bonuses by default that scale with lvl. As in higher lvl item = higher bonuses. That is +movement speed on all boots/shoes, +body heat on all pieces, etc.

Best case scenario would be to add all of it. That way I will feel rewarded with 70 endurance and 60-70 level items.


Are... you sure that you are on the right forum? Or even the right game? I would fully expect this on a League of Legends forum or something similar. But this is a project that throws back to Old School MMOs, they have base skills that players grind up through use, they have quirky NPCs, they have long Dungeons that sometimes pound your face in, they have meh Graphics(comparatively), they have intricate loot tables where a loot drop can yield that .1% drop and give you the perfect item that you want or a White Spatha worth 25g....

What they don't do however is give clear direction, make it easy, give consultation prizes, give amazing "real time" combat mechanics, give instant gratification....

Grobyddonot, I'm not sure what you expected out of a thread like this, but I don't think that we will see much coming out of it unless you can offer reasonable suggestions, some of those 'broken' mechanics are what make the game what it is. And then, if you trully have that much trouble with the way that PG is being made maybe this isn't the game for you? We enjoy it, a great many people enjoy it from what a general audience perspective. No we probably won't be breaking any records, but meh, that would be great but that isn't really what the aim is. Try to enjoy the game for what it is trying to be not what contemporaries offer as competition, thats crazy cause.... we arn't trying to be like them!

[Grobyddonot]

Are... you sure that you are on the right forum? Or even the right game? I would fully expect this on a League of Legends forum or something similar. But this is a project that throws back to Old School MMOs, they have base skills that players grind up through use, they have quirky NPCs, they have long Dungeons that sometimes pound your face in, they have meh Graphics(comparatively), they have intricate loot tables where a loot drop can yield that .1% drop and give you the perfect item that you want or a White Spatha worth 25g....


Leveling multiple skills or your character in general in old MMO's gave you great raw power ups, made the game even more fun, enabled fast travel, etc,etc.

What leveling the skills to the current max gave me in PG? Inventory slots, ability to craft lvl 70 items and weak fighting abilities. Because this game is currently about gear. Completely about gear. Want to run faster? Gear. Want to deal more damage? Gear. Want to survive? Gear. Want to slow down the Body Heat diminish? Gear!

Am I supossed to carry 4 complete sets around @ all times? And that's If i'll only use 2-3 combat skills.. One for Cold, one for Utility, one for fighting, one for travelling faster?

Now how is that fun? How does that makes me feel rewarded for raising skill up to 60+-70+?

Where is my old-school-mmo leveling reward? Is it only the ability to craft gear and to have 5-10% damage increase on my abilities without any gear? Pff...

And the game also forces me to do something that I don't want to do, to freeze to death for example. Why don't I have a great alternative to that? You know the old-good-mmo huge worlds with multiple options to grind in different enviroments. Snowy islands or jungle or desert or just the temperate climate. Highest level mobs in different locations. PG is linear, it gives you no alternative. You have to go Serbule-Eltibule-Kur-Ilmari-Rahu-Gazluk. While the game is only in Alpha (even tho it's a couple of years old) this probably won't change. At least I got a feeling, from the blog and forums, that the devs want the game to be "linear" in terms of locations like that.

So TL;DR. I don't feel rewarded for leveling up skills atm. But I tried not to put it that way in Alpha, because you know, it's not the time to balance the gear and all the skills.

P.S. I don't even get extra inventory slots and armor regen for 60 or 65+ Endurace levels. Very rewarding to get it up to 80 (with bonus levels), sure.

[Grobyddonot]

.........
Lets sum up your feelings:
You don't like the grind
........


http://i.imgur.com/mZZpM3I.png

Not bad for a new player, who hates grinding in games, huh? Just 2 low level examples. So, about your post in my thread, in your words.


This post is anything but objective. It casts aspersions at MMO players and the players of this game. It uses simple broad, absolute language to describe personal feelings.

It's just invalid, because it's simply not true about me, isn't it? Therefore it has no value and is completely dismissed.

[drivendawn]

Leveling multiple skills or your character in general in old MMO's gave you great raw power ups, made the game even more fun, enabled fast travel, etc,etc.

What leveling the skills to the current max gave me in PG? Inventory slots, ability to craft lvl 70 items and weak fighting abilities. Because this game is currently about gear. Completely about gear. Want to run faster? Gear. Want to deal more damage? Gear. Want to survive? Gear. Want to slow down the Body Heat diminish? Gear!

Am I supossed to carry 4 complete sets around @ all times? And that's If i'll only use 2-3 combat skills.. One for Cold, one for Utility, one for fighting, one for travelling faster?

Now how is that fun? How does that makes me feel rewarded for raising skill up to 60+-70+?

Where is my old-school-mmo leveling reward? Is it only the ability to craft gear and to have 5-10% damage increase on my abilities without any gear? Pff...

And the game also forces me to do something that I don't want to do, to freeze to death for example. Why don't I have a great alternative to that? You know the old-good-mmo huge worlds with multiple options to grind in different enviroments. Snowy islands or jungle or desert or just the temperate climate. Highest level mobs in different locations. PG is linear, it gives you no alternative. You have to go Serbule-Eltibule-Kur-Ilmari-Rahu-Gazluk. While the game is only in Alpha (even tho it's a couple of years old) this probably won't change. At least I got a feeling, from the blog and forums, that the devs want the game to be "linear" in terms of locations like that.

So TL;DR. I don't feel rewarded for leveling up skills atm. But I tried not to put it that way in Alpha, because you know, it's not the time to balance the gear and all the skills.

P.S. I don't even get extra inventory slots and armor regen for 60 or 65+ Endurace levels. Very rewarding to get it up to 80 (with bonus levels), sure.

I played FFXI and let me tell you I love horizontal progression (as in multiple sets of gear for different things at the same lvl) and the accomplishment it gave me when I got them. I love situational gear and this game has unique ways of making that possible. It sounds like you don't like a gear dependent game and that is fine but it's opinion. I mean if you played UO you would see it's gear was everything in that game even more so than this game. This is a design decision and some will like it some won't. As far as the linear zone progression goes, if they continue to develop the game like they have in the past there will be many different lvl dungeons in each area. Take the serbule area, it is a lvl 10 to 25 zone yet the dungeons at their deepest can be up to lvl 45 or so. These newer zones have not been developed nearly as much and Eric has said as much in a more recent blog.

[Grobyddonot]

I played FFXI and let me tell you I love horizontal progression (as in multiple sets of gear for different things at the same lvl) and the accomplishment it gave me when I got them. I love situational gear and this game has unique ways of making that possible. It sounds like you don't like a gear dependent game and that is fine but it's opinion. I mean if you played UO you would see it's gear was everything in that game even more so than this game. This is a design decision and some will like it some won't. As far as the linear zone progression goes, if they continue to develop the game like they have in the past there will be many different lvl dungeons in each area. Take the surbule area, it is a lvl 10 to 25 zone yet the dungeons at their deepest can be up to lvl 45 or so. These newer zones have not been developed nearly as much and Eric has said as much in a more recent blog.

It's good that you mention UO. I didn't want to bring that up by myself, but let's talk a bit Ultima Online (a good, old, hugely successful MMO that is still ALIVE! after almost 20 years!)

In UO you just dealt more damage with weapons/magic by raising skills. Yeah, equipment empowered you a bit (quite a bit if you're a warrior), but the PLAYER SKILL and the TEAM you play with were such a huge parts of the balance that you could sometimes really get into the fights almost naked on a horsey. Some reagents, a spellbook and a horse and the mage was ready to take on a fully geared warrior (pre AOS). And ofc farming monsters, cause we're kinda PvE here, was easy with a mage, not the cheapest way in terms of reagents, but still good and NAKED except for the strongest monsters in the game. Cast some blade spirits/vortexes couple of walls/fields, all depends on a monster/spot. The best PvE class to kill dragons tho? Well, that's Archery/Taming or Mage/Taming or Mage/Archer. They never needed armor with some great mods. Not even in the latest versions of the game. You can get a mediocre leather set and a bow and go farm some regular dragons carefully.

Shall we compare some details related to combat/crafting/skills?

UO: As of now, you're officialy allowed to macro in UO, even if most of the skills are not that hard to train anymore. Not 1998. On top of that what is resource gathering in UO? Right, you go into a mine and mine there being at least semi-afk, or you to any tree in any town and chop it. How much do I have to travel and fight in UO to get a 100 of iron ore and 100 logs in UO? That's pretty damn right, not at all. I don't have to fight anything at all, I can even be afk. I don't care about characters movement speed or combat skills.
PG: How much do I have to do and travel in Gorgon to get 100 Redwall Crystal or 100 oak wood? I can't do it in afk mode, I can't do it in the semi-afk mode, I actually have to put in some effort and fight some mobs and travel through the entire map. maybe even multiple times in circles for wood.

UO 1 : PG 0

UO: Can I get the best metal/wood in the Britain? Yes, if my skill is high enough I just have to find the right mining nod/rock or tree and get it. Not even leaving the guarded zone most of the time.
PG: Can I get the best metal/wood in Serbule (IK that Serbule is not the capital, but it's the center city of the game atm)? Haha, ofc not. I have to travel half a world and freeze my ass in Kur or Dehydrate in Ilmari to get any decent amount of best metal slabs/ores. Wood? At least Eltibule for Cedar.

UO 2 : PG 0

UO: If I level my magery to 40% or 45% out of 100% (120 later), I can cast Kal Ort Por, almost without fizzling, on any recall rune in the game that is marked by any player in the game, teleporting me in 2-3 seconds to any town, island, dungeon entrance, player house, any single square tile of the game world really (yeah, except for inside of dungeons (later versions of the game tho, lol) obviously). That's having level 40-45, hell, even 50 teleportation in PG. And when I'll raise my magery to 60-65-80% (6th circle of magic fizze and no fizzle), I can mark any number of runes almost anywhere I want. Next time I want to get to an NPC on the outskirts of the world: Kar Ort Por, small delay, I'm there. Talk to the NPC, Kal Ort Por back to the city/house.
PG: Having level 50 teleportaion in PG gives me..hm.. nothing actually. The latest Teleportaion recipe atm is lvl 28. And even that only allows you to recall to ONE bound location for 2 aquamarines and a scroll. And yeah I get like +5 power or smth for lvling it from 0 to 50. Very rewarding teleportation skill and system.

UO 3 : PG 0

UO: Equipped items are on the character and don't take up the backpack space.
PG: Equipped items still take up the slots in your inventory.

UO 4 : PG 0.

UO: Crafting wasn't random up to AOS+, which was the breakpoint when the game began to die off, because of EA and their "new" ideas. Even then tho, most items were not random, you've only got the random runic enchants.
PG: Completely random.

UO 5 : PG 0.

Do we want to continue the comparsion? UO is one of my favorite games of all time. I've played it for years! Even when EA bought it and released AOS and stuff, they didn't manage to kill the great game right away, which is surprising, given how bad EA is atm. But, time and EA eventually did their thing, the decline of population, because of stupid overpowered artifacts, which killed the crafting almost completely, insurance and other stuff that influenced PvP, and well, parts of PvE. Community hated it all quite a bit. Hell, even Trammel wasn't such a drawback for PvP lovers as insurance, artifacts, etc were.

Hell, man, UO was truly great and fun to play. One of the best games ever created.

[Spiritfingers]

It's good that you mention UO. I didn't want to bring that up by myself, but let's talk a bit Ultima Online (a good, old, hugely successful MMO that is still ALIVE! after almost 20 years!)

In UO you just dealt more damage with weapons/magic by raising skills. Yeah, equipment empowered you a bit (quite a bit if you're a warrior), but the PLAYER SKILL and the TEAM you play with were such a huge parts of the balance that you could sometimes really get into the fights almost naked on a horsey. Some reagents, a spellbook and a horse and the mage was ready to take on a fully geared warrior (pre AOS). And ofc farming monsters, cause we're kinda PvE here, was easy with a mage, not the cheapest way in terms of reagents, but still good and NAKED except for the strongest monsters in the game. Cast some blade spirits/vortexes couple of walls/fields, all depends on a monster/spot. The best PvE class to kill dragons tho? Well, that's Archery/Taming or Mage/Taming or Mage/Archer. They never needed armor with some great mods. Not even in the latest versions of the game. You can get a mediocre leather set and a bow and go farm some regular dragons carefully.

Shall we compare some details related to combat/crafting/skills?

UO: As of now, you're officialy allowed to macro in UO, even if most of the skills are not that hard to train anymore. Not 1998. On top of that what is resource gathering in UO? Right, you go into a mine and mine there being at least semi-afk, or you to any tree in any town and chop it. How much do I have to travel and fight in UO to get a 100 of iron ore and 100 logs in UO? That's pretty damn right, not at all. I don't have to fight anything at all, I can even be afk. I don't care about characters movement speed or combat skills.
PG: How much do I have to do and travel in Gorgon to get 100 Redwall Crystal or 100 oak wood? I can't do it in afk mode, I can't do it in the semi-afk mode, I actually have to put in some effort and fight some mobs and travel through the entire map. maybe even multiple times in circles for wood.

UO 1 : PG 0

UO: Can I get the best metal/wood in the Britain? Yes, if my skill is high enough I just have to find the right mining nod/rock or tree and get it. Not even leaving the guarded zone most of the time.
PG: Can I get the best metal/wood in Serbule (IK that Serbule is not the capital, but it's the center city of the game atm)? Haha, ofc not. I have to travel half a world and freeze my ass in Kur or Dehydrate in Ilmari to get any decent amount of best metal slabs/ores. Wood? At least Eltibule for Cedar.

UO 2 : PG 0

UO: If I level my magery to 40% or 45% out of 100% (120 later), I can cast Kal Ort Por, almost without fizzling, on any recall rune in the game that is marked by any player in the game, teleporting me in 2-3 seconds to any town, island, dungeon entrance, player house, any single square tile of the game world really (yeah, except for inside of dungeons (later versions of the game tho, lol) obviously). That's having level 40-45, hell, even 50 teleportation in PG. And when I'll raise my magery to 60-65-80% (6th circle of magic fizze and no fizzle), I can mark any number of runes almost anywhere I want. Next time I want to get to an NPC on the outskirts of the world: Kar Ort Por, small delay, I'm there. Talk to the NPC, Kal Ort Por back to the city/house.
PG: Having level 50 teleportaion in PG gives me..hm.. nothing actually. The latest Teleportaion recipe atm is lvl 28. And even that only allows you to recall to ONE bound location for 2 aquamarines and a scroll. And yeah I get like +5 power or smth for lvling it from 0 to 50. Very rewarding teleportation skill and system.

UO 3 : PG 0

UO: Equipped items are on the character and don't take up the backpack space.
PG: Equipped items still take up the slots in your inventory.

UO 4 : PG 0.

UO: Crafting wasn't random up to AOS+, which was the breakpoint when the game began to die off, because of EA and their "new" ideas. Even then tho, most items were not random, you've only got the random runic enchants.
PG: Completely random.

UO 5 : PG 0.

Do we want to continue the comparsion? UO is one of my favorite games of all time. I've played it for years! Even when EA bought it and released AOS and stuff, they didn't manage to kill the great game right away, which is surprising, given how bad EA is atm. But, time and EA eventually did their thing, the decline of population, because of stupid overpowered artifacts, which killed the crafting almost completely, insurance and other stuff that influenced PvP, and well, parts of PvE. Community hated it all quite a bit. Hell, even Trammel wasn't such a drawback for PvP lovers as insurance, artifacts, etc were.

Hell, man, UO was truly great and fun to play. One of the best games ever created.

So are you mad that PG isn't UO? Are you mad PG is moving farther away from UO than you want? Man, go play UO. IF game is still running and you love it 5 UO to PG 0...why are you here bashing everything PG is? No matter what anyone says, you are dead set on your opinion and tones of your message. Why play a game you hate?

[drivendawn]

It's good that you mention UO. I didn't want to bring that up by myself, but let's talk a bit Ultima Online (a good, old, hugely successful MMO that is still ALIVE! after almost 20 years!)

In UO you just dealt more damage with weapons/magic by raising skills. Yeah, equipment empowered you a bit (quite a bit if you're a warrior), but the PLAYER SKILL and the TEAM you play with were such a huge parts of the balance that you could sometimes really get into the fights almost naked on a horsey. Some reagents, a spellbook and a horse and the mage was ready to take on a fully geared warrior (pre AOS). And ofc farming monsters, cause we're kinda PvE here, was easy with a mage, not the cheapest way in terms of reagents, but still good and NAKED except for the strongest monsters in the game. Cast some blade spirits/vortexes couple of walls/fields, all depends on a monster/spot. The best PvE class to kill dragons tho? Well, that's Archery/Taming or Mage/Taming or Mage/Archer. They never needed armor with some great mods. Not even in the latest versions of the game. You can get a mediocre leather set and a bow and go farm some regular dragons carefully.
Even in PG you don't have to have awesome armor and can even have missing pieces and you can kill regular mobs your lvl and do the same in a group to many of the bosses
Shall we compare some details related to combat/crafting/skills?

UO: As of now, you're officialy allowed to macro in UO, even if most of the skills are not that hard to train anymore. Not 1998. On top of that what is resource gathering in UO? Right, you go into a mine and mine there being at least semi-afk, or you to any tree in any town and chop it. How much do I have to travel and fight in UO to get a 100 of iron ore and 100 logs in UO? That's pretty damn right, not at all. I don't have to fight anything at all, I can even be afk. I don't care about characters movement speed or combat skills.
PG: How much do I have to do and travel in Gorgon to get 100 Redwall Crystal or 100 oak wood? I can't do it in afk mode, I can't do it in the semi-afk mode, I actually have to put in some effort and fight some mobs and travel through the entire map. maybe even multiple times in circles for wood.

UO 1 : PG 0
Ok, so to me this is a plus to PG and not UO because it sounds like you put in no effort and lazy game play not to mention unengaging.
UO: Can I get the best metal/wood in the Britain? Yes, if my skill is high enough I just have to find the right mining nod/rock or tree and get it. Not even leaving the guarded zone most of the time.
PG: Can I get the best metal/wood in Serbule (IK that Serbule is not the capital, but it's the center city of the game atm)? Haha, ofc not. I have to travel half a world and freeze my ass in Kur or Dehydrate in Ilmari to get any decent amount of best metal slabs/ores. Wood? At least Eltibule for Cedar.

UO 2 : PG 0
Again sounds easy mode as hell with a lot of playing in the same area
UO: If I level my magery to 40% or 45% out of 100% (120 later), I can cast Kal Ort Por, almost without fizzling, on any recall rune in the game that is marked by any player in the game, teleporting me in 2-3 seconds to any town, island, dungeon entrance, player house, any single square tile of the game world really (yeah, except for inside of dungeons (later versions of the game tho, lol) obviously). That's having level 40-45, hell, even 50 teleportation in PG. And when I'll raise my magery to 60-65-80% (6th circle of magic fizze and no fizzle), I can mark any number of runes almost anywhere I want. Next time I want to get to an NPC on the outskirts of the world: Kar Ort Por, small delay, I'm there. Talk to the NPC, Kal Ort Por back to the city/house.
PG: Having level 50 teleportaion in PG gives me..hm.. nothing actually. The latest Teleportaion recipe atm is lvl 28. And even that only allows you to recall to ONE bound location for 2 aquamarines and a scroll. And yeah I get like +5 power or smth for lvling it from 0 to 50. Very rewarding teleportation skill and system.

UO 3 : PG 0
PG is still in development and so there maybe new teleport spells and there will be mounts and it really isn't that hard to traverse the PG zones in a timely manner:confused:
UO: Equipped items are on the character and don't take up the backpack space.
PG: Equipped items still take up the slots in your inventory.

UO 4 : PG 0.
Again in development, when the new UI comes out this may be a way of the past but yes I don't care for this either
UO: Crafting wasn't random up to AOS+, which was the breakpoint when the game began to die off, because of EA and their "new" ideas. Even then tho, most items were not random, you've only got the random runic enchants.
PG: Completely random.

UO 5 : PG 0.
I played Ashron"s Call and for this sort of game which has a lot in common with AC, I think the random loot system is perfect and I love it.

Do we want to continue the comparsion? UO is one of my favorite games of all time. I've played it for years! Even when EA bought it and released AOS and stuff, they didn't manage to kill the great game right away, which is surprising, given how bad EA is atm. But, time and EA eventually did their thing, the decline of population, because of stupid overpowered artifacts, which killed the crafting almost completely, insurance and other stuff that influenced PvP, and well, parts of PvE. Community hated it all quite a bit. Hell, even Trammel wasn't such a drawback for PvP lovers as insurance, artifacts, etc were.

Hell, man, UO was truly great and fun to play. One of the best games ever created.

I am glad you liked UO so much but that was only one sentence in my paragraph.

[Grobyddonot]

So are you mad that PG isn't UO? Are you mad PG is moving farther away from UO than you want? Man, go play UO. IF game is still running and you love it 5 UO to PG 0...why are you here bashing everything PG is? No matter what anyone says, you are dead set on your opinion and tones of your message. Why play a game you hate?

No. No. Not interesting anymore, because there are no people in the game I used to play this game with. Plus the community is very small, dying off even. 5 UO to 0 PG are just examples. You can make other examples in favor of PG. Like PG is 3D, etc. I'm not bashing everything PG is, it was a raw comparsion. What can be more objective than that? Oh, nvm.. Because...

I'm dead set on what opinion of mine? You know what my complete all-around opinion of PG is?
I'm not playing PG right now, because almost all of the WOs are on CD. so that's a couple of weeks-month till i'll get into heavy grind and council farming again. But I will, when at least some wo cds refresh.

Why do you think that I hate PG? First of all "hate" is already a harsh word, you could say "dislike" but that is also not true. Did I ever said that I hate PG? Just PG?

Better and accurate wording is: There are certain things about this game I thoroughly dislike (no worries tho, there were things I hated about UO either, you can't really imagine that I just happily accept everything, right? Not that kind of a person.)

The reason I do not leave/stop playing is rather naive, but still, it's Alpha. Everything is a subject to change, everything can be or can be not wiped. What I'm doing is more like "What I don't like about the game after leveling multiple skills to the cap, what could be done better imo, etc." That's raw feedback with a bit of objectivity when you compare it with other great games/online numbers.

It's not like I started "critising" the game without putting any time and effort into it, right? I also report bugs/exploits/give suggestions via the ingame "!" menu.

If you insist on using the word hate, you may call it "All the stuff grobyd hates in PG" and if you think about it, it's not even much. It starts with the "AI" section in the very first post.

What motivates me to give negative feedback, sometimes harsh? Well, first of all someone has to. If a player truly hates the game he won't even bother visiting a forum once or play the game much. Second, I'm not a great inventor/reporter/pornstar of our time, but what I do have is a great gaming experience of over 20 years with hundreds of titles (inculding tens of mmos). Great AAA and Indie and likewise absolutely terrible rip-off AAA and Indie titles. And I for sure know what I and more importantly some other people (as in not just me as 1 person but at least couple of hundreds from different communities) like/dislike in games.

It's up to the dev team tho, if they consider my feedback at least somehow valuable or not. I doubt that people who absolutely love everything about this game have to protect it, because let's face it, nothing and no one is perfect.

IK most of you think that I'm a hater and constantly dislike stuff. But at least I'm talking about different stuff every time. Not sure how valuable it's all to the devs, but it's certainly has more value than "Oh this game is great and perfect, I love absolutely everything about it." Less positive, but more value for the game in the Alpha.

And I encourage all of you, to talk about things that you love AND don't like in this game. Devs can't read your mind, so speak it.

[Grobyddonot]

I am glad you liked UO so much but that was only one sentence in my paragraph.

Well, I prefer to talk about stuff I know about. I've never played FFXI. As for the locations and such, well, you're mostly right, because it's Alpha and stuff and we'll see what comes, but isn't it likewise the very first sentence of the entire thread?

You like this game, OK. You like carrying multiple sets of gear with you, OK. It's your opinion. I've carried 2.5 sets in PG either. Fighting, Utility (BC, Shield), and some +inventory stuff for crafting/surveying, etc. But even 2.5 are not 4 different sets. It's not that easy to craft 4 perfect sets, moreover it makes no sense. Let's say you'll have them in 3 months. In 3-5-6 (more like 6) month we'll have another major skill cap update (i hope so) and you'll have to craft it all over again. Not that much fun in that for me, knowing that my current items will be obsolete, but that's just me. If, on the other hand, we would already have the 125 level cap for some crafting/battle skills, I would silently grind them to the max, craft the best gear in the game (which will be best for years, I sincerely hope) and then give my feedback. But who knows when the 125 lvl recipes and ingridients will be in the game? Could be 1-2 years from now.

[drivendawn]

Well, I prefer to talk about stuff I know about. I've never played FFXI. As for the locations and such, well, you're mostly right, because it's Alpha and stuff and we'll see what comes, but isn't it likewise the very first sentence of the entire thread?

You like this game, OK. You like carrying multiple sets of gear with you, OK. It's your opinion. I've carried 2.5 sets in PG either. Fighting, Utility (BC, Shield), and some +inventory stuff for crafting/surveying, etc. But even 2.5 are not 4 different sets. It's not that easy to craft 4 perfect sets, moreover it makes no sense. Let's say you'll have them in 3 months. In 3-5-6 (more like 6) month we'll have another major skill cap update (i hope so) and you'll have to craft it all over again. Not that much fun in that for me, knowing that my current items will be obsolete, but that's just me. If, on the other hand, we would already have the 125 level cap for some crafting/battle skills, I would silently grind them to the max, craft the best gear in the game (which will be best for years, I sincerely hope) and then give my feedback. But who knows when the 125 lvl recipes and ingridients will be in the game? Could be 1-2 years from now.

Well if you want to just play the game without it changing like that so much I would suggest waiting till the game launches and has solidified it's features completely. Or do like me as I don't play constantly myself and only get on every once in a while to check out new things and give a little feed back.

[LaRaj]

Although there are bugs, many things are obviously under development, and constantly changing I for one thoroughly enjoy this game... something I have not done with a MMO in many years. This game does not follow the cookie cutter layout that almost every game since WoW has created... it is truly unique. I intended to do my best to help the developer improve the game by report bugs, possible exploits, and give suggestions to things that I see could use some work. I am thrilled to have the PRIVILEGE of being able to play while these three developer work hard to build the world around me. If I am stupid or whatever for optimistically enjoying this game then so be it.

You have had MANY criticisms and MANY negative views very plainly posted. This game is not for everyone, which is fine by me. My suggestion to you is that if you do not like the game, or since you cannot see anything but failure for this game than why don't you go find a game that will better suit your needs. If you are so unhappy with this please leave and allow us (the people who are excited and hopeful) to enjoy this game. By what I have read in the posts here your negative view points and harsh unwarranted objectives will not be horribly missed.

[Grobyddonot]

Although there are bugs, many things are obviously under development, and constantly changing I for one thoroughly enjoy this game... something I have not done with a MMO in many years. This game does not follow the cookie cutter layout that almost every game since WoW has created... it is truly unique. I intended to do my best to help the developer improve the game by report bugs, possible exploits, and give suggestions to things that I see could use some work. I am thrilled to have the PRIVILEGE of being able to play while these three developer work hard to build the world around me. If I am stupid or whatever for optimistically enjoying this game then so be it.

UO, Entropia Universe, EQ, EVE, etc... Just saying. Is the idea of PG good? Yes, it is. Is it unique? No, it's not unique. Get over it.



You have had MANY criticisms and MANY negative views very plainly posted. This game is not for everyone, which is fine by me. My suggestion to you is that if you do not like the game, or since you cannot see anything but failure for this game than why don't you go find a game that will better suit your needs. If you are so unhappy with this please leave and allow us (the people who are excited and hopeful) to enjoy this game. By what I have read in the posts here your negative view points and harsh unwarranted objectives will not be horribly missed.

Because critcism and negative view is something a game in Alpha needs. Actually, in Beta and RC and after the release too. If the developers want to make this game successful they need to get the negative feedback.

What this game absolutely has no need for are the fanboys who play it for a week, ok 3 weeks tops and protecting it for no reason and with 0 objectivity. Personality bashing is cool, I get it, but you (do not worry you are not alone) are making this community look bad. Not the game, but the community, the players. Makes a shitty impression, really. But don't you worry, because idc. People on Steam, however, might care and they won't play this game because of people like you. Adequate, realistic people know that there are downsides to everything and they will speak about them, if they want to.

At least raise a couple of skills to 70-75 before trying to psychoanalyze other players.

P.S. If you'll keep telling people "this game is not for everyone, shut up and gtfo" you'll be stuck with the online of 200 kids or fanboys. Which could, in theory, result in fail to live up to the devs expectations.

[LaRaj]

I intend to stay for the long haul despite what you think of this game and its community. I think you have gone a long way to show exactly what Silvonis was talking about;

"I do want to mention, Grobyd, that I often notice that in-game chat you are mostly negative and harsh on the game in general. It is one thing to have constructive critisism but is totally another to be cynical and I think that sometimes you skate that line too much. Why am I bringing this up? Just because, to me, it taints feedback when someone seems to be negative on almost everything while never really highlighting anything they like."

All I was suggesting was that if you are dissatisfied with this game, its direction, or its community that perhaps you should move on to something else and allow the people who do enjoy and who do offer a variety of constructive feedback to play it in peace.

Thank you!

[Grobyddonot]

I intend to stay for the long haul despite what you think of this game and its community. I think you have gone a long way to show exactly what Silvonis was talking about;

"I do want to mention, Grobyd, that I often notice that in-game chat you are mostly negative and harsh on the game in general. It is one thing to have constructive critisism but is totally another to be cynical and I think that sometimes you skate that line too much. Why am I bringing this up? Just because, to me, it taints feedback when someone seems to be negative on almost everything while never really highlighting anything they like."

All I was suggesting was that if you are dissatisfied with this game, its direction, or its community that perhaps you should move on to something else and allow the people who do enjoy and who do offer a variety of constructive feedback to play it in peace.

Thank you!

Silvonis was wrong and now you choose to go the same route, fine. Go reread the first post. The part about Anagoge, Serbule and Eltibule.

Yeah, sure, I'm bad and cynical and "totally hate the game", yet I do try to lvlup ALL the skills in the game and I have a couple of them over 70. Go find a dedicated "hater" who'll invest that much time into the game.

Truth is, some people leave after 1-2 hours of playing (not even a day), some people leave after a day or two. And not, they're not "taking a break", because they don't even get to the Eltibule yet. I guess there are some reasons for that, unfortunately we do not know what they are. Out of, let's say, 50 players I've met in the last couple of months and helped to get the Necromancy I see maybe like 3-5 online tops. so 45 left without saying anything. You expect some kind of valuable feedback from where again? people who leave in 2 hours?

Harsh? Negative? I just don't bother with wrapping up bad stuff into a nice package and I'm telling exactly what I feel. Maybe, sometimes, a bit too emotional...
Point is, if something is bad i'm saying "that's bad" and if something is shit I'll say "that's shit".

IDC about the community, communities rarely provide any valuable objectivity. If a pesron loves this game for whatever reason, they can't be entirely reasonable and objective.
People who leave the game in 2 hours and the number of players online on the other hand are much more objective than any person in a "community".

Fine, forget me and my feedback, I'm just a useless hater. Go read feedback from people who say that the storage space is a problem, or animal forms, or graphics, or lack of the story atm, or that the game won't lead you, whatever. Tell them to enjoy other games, etc, lol. Wait, these things are mostly subjective, they don't do any harm to the gameplay of 1 character. Now the nerf of the mutated toes DOES.

P.S. I also absolutely loved the mutated toes before they were nerfed to shit.

P.S.2. Game is in Alpha, I give my raw feedback. This game can and I sincerely hope will be SO MUCH better in terms of gameplay. That's about it. You don't like it? Pass by, move along, you don't have to defend the game.

[Tagamogi]

The new player experience is amazing. Anagoge and Seruble are fun to play through, they're full of content, you learn the game, nothing prevents you from having all the fun in the world. The Eltibule is also great in terms of content and fun, but that is usually the point where you start to learn about some of the flaws.
If you don't mind me asking, what made you like Anagoge and Serbule? What flaws did you have problems with in Eltibule?

I've been interpreting your posts as you wanting to skip over low level content as fast as possible, get to max level and then run around enjoying being invincible. Because that doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me, I've really not been paying much attention to your complaints. Since I apparently fail at reading comprehension though, do you mind explaining which parts of the game work for you and why? It might help me figure out if we have some agreement on what "fun" is.

As far as players trying the game and leaving goes, I'd expect that, regardless of how fun a game is. I don't have the stats on how often this happens in MMOs in general vs Gorgon in particular. Anecdotally, here's why three people I know aren't playing the game right now:
1. EQ player who was looking for an EQ replacement but didn't want to deal with an alpha state game. With the future of EQ looking better now, he's happily playing EQ and doesn't really have time or inclination for another game.
2. Player who tried out PG and had a blast fireballing pigs. He couldn't get any of his friends interested at the time, had some real life stuff come up and mostly quit. He'll be back at some point, for some time.
3. Player who tried out the newbie island and had a long list of complaints, half of which amounted to graphics problems I've never noticed. He very much enjoys pretty scenery and character dress-up, so I think he probably won't be back unless PG gets a major face lift.

My fuzzy point is that the reason those people aren't playing doesn't have all that much to do with PG itself. Except for the graphics, of course, but since I'm a person who basically never notices graphics or animation, I'm pretty happy that the current development energy focuses on more important (to me) stuff.

[drivendawn]

Indeed there are many people who try the game and leave. Some people can't get past the graphics, also I am sure some don't like tab target or maybe the classless system and random loot. However there are plenty that leave or only come in every so often because it's alfa and want to wait for the game to be complete. As I said the newer areas will have more content added to them and Eric has said as much. So I am not to worried about the old areas having more to do than the new ones do. In short a lot of you problems with the game will be fixed in the future. Just read over the old blogs.

[Oxlazr]

I don't really want to add more fuel to the fire, but to complain about grind in a MMO? That's a little strange. I don't know any MMOs without grind - there's always levels, quests, whatever, to grind in some form or other - and that's where you meet players.


IDC about the community, communities rarely provide any valuable objectivity.

If that's the case, then maybe you're playing the genre for the wrong reasons. Single player games have a lot more flexibility, a lot less grind, and can have a lot more content. There's literally no reason to play a MMO if you don't care about the community.

[Crissa]

...Why is it I've done these survey 100th of Grobyd and have leveled into other zones but he hasn't?

[Tagamogi]

Ok, so I asked a friend who works in game development about player retention stats. Short summary, player retention is generally pretty low, regardless of the game. Longer sidetrack for those who care:

- In a free to play game (non-MMO) that he's worked on, he thinks roughly 30% of people made it through the tutorial section to a point where they were actually playing the game. Maybe half of those people actually logged into the game again the next day. This game is still around 3-4 years after it launched, so I think it's doing ok.

- For free to play MMOs, there's some lovely discussion of retention statistics at https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/understanding-free-to-play-mmo-retention-joost-van-dreunen . To paraphrase some of the stats, roughly 1-6% of players who start a game will still play it a year later.

- For pay-to-play games, Valve was kind enough to post some statistics for Half Life 2: http://www.steampowered.com/status/ep1/ , http://www.steampowered.com/status/ep2/ep2_stats.php . My friend pointed out that: "In episode 1, 25% of players quit before they've even played an hour. In episode 1, less than half of all players even finish the game. In episode 2, more players play for longer, but still half don't finish. "

None of these games are exactly Gorgon's model, but I think it shows that player retention in general just tends to be low, so I wouldn't worry too much about not every new player coming back to Gorgon. This doesn't invalidate Grobyddonot's assertion that some new players may be leaving because they find the same aspects of the game frustrating that he is, but I don't think it's accurate to say the game isn't fun because a lot of new players don't come back. That's just the nature of gaming.

[Grobyddonot]

I don't really want to add more fuel to the fire, but to complain about grind in a MMO? That's a little strange. I don't know any MMOs without grind - there's always levels, quests, whatever, to grind in some form or other - and that's where you meet players.

If that's the case, then maybe you're playing the genre for the wrong reasons. Single player games have a lot more flexibility, a lot less grind, and can have a lot more content. There's literally no reason to play a MMO if you don't care about the community.

Community is not playing such a big role in any MMO as they (the community) use to think. Most players never even make contact with a lot of other players. Some, yeah. Even in PG, the game where grouping is encouraged, even a must in some dungeons, a lot of players just play with their own party. Comparable with a premade in mobas. I can give a small example, with the druid event (eltibule droaches) a couple of days ago... We made a party of 2 and went to farm them by ourselves, because I can actually solo a droach with my character (hello DC). Unlike some Ilmari Events we had no need for even a druid.
I do not complain about grind in the MMO. I do compain about the gameplay being not fun @ times and the grind is just a major part of it. Does it make sense? Continue to read under the next quote...


If you don't mind me asking, what made you like Anagoge and Serbule? What flaws did you have problems with in Eltibule?

I've been interpreting your posts as you wanting to skip over low level content as fast as possible, get to max level and then run around enjoying being invincible. Because that doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me, I've really not been paying much attention to your complaints. Since I apparently fail at reading comprehension though, do you mind explaining which parts of the game work for you and why? It might help me figure out if we have some agreement on what "fun" is.

My fuzzy point is that the reason those people aren't playing doesn't have all that much to do with PG itself. Except for the graphics, of course, but since I'm a person who basically never notices graphics or animation, I'm pretty happy that the current development energy focuses on more important (to me) stuff.

Gameplay is the most important part of any game for me. IDC about graphics at all.
PG is not a game where you'll become invincible by reaching the highest level. That is also not the goal. BUT, theres a difference between being invincible and not being a weakling, because raw levels give you almost no power-up at all.

When you level up, in any game, you expect the grind to become easier or more fun or automated, etc... That's the feeling of progress the games give you. You invest time in your character and your character grows stronger and more "able" by itself. Well, this is absolutely not the case in PG, because the gear matters too much and levels almost do not at all. Example: You can be a lvl 60 sword/shield, with bad gear, let's say blue-red lvl 50 or smth and have hard time to kill, let's say panthers in kur (just an example, cause they won't be i guess, never tried) And you can be a lvl 40 sword/shield with a full lvl 40 yellow set of max gear, who'll kill them in 2-3 hits each without any problems whatsoever.

Simply put: Gear > Level. That's one of my complaints, not the major one, I can live with that. This is however absolutely unoriginal and old. Take WoW as an example, a lot people in this community are not very fond it, but it has just the same mechanics. Two max level characters. 1 - just lvled up, has nothing, weakling. 2 - with the best gear is 10 times more powerful than the first one. Gear has to progress and make you more powerful, but not 10-20-30 times. It's like Diablo series, D3 especially, endless grind against random for the best possible rolls on the gear. This is "meh", imo. I wouldn't expect that from an "original, old school mmo", which is a game like the old versions of UO for me. Not the end of the world, but i'm just disappointed.

Anagoge and Serbule are so good, because they give you a sense of progression, you go from fighting a pig or a spider, to oneshotting it in a day. You get the impression that it is because of you leveling up and skills, but it's not. It happens if you're lucky enough to get some decent low level gear and still it doesn't feel like grind or anything. I mean, you do grind, but it doesn't feel like a job yet. Plus Anagoge, Serbule and Eltibule have great monster spawns. In packs. You know, tigers, skeles, mants in Serbule, Dinos, bears, spiders, mants, snails in Elti. Although I would like to see every spawnpoint/zone in the game like that of Dinos in Elti or Panthers in Kur, the best outdoors spawns in the game right now, imo. Plus, you can always get to Serbule/Eltibule and grind, grind, grind there, till the end of the days, really.

And here comes the Kur. So, you were having your fun in a sandbox (Anagoge, Serbule), then Elti and then the game all of a sudden goes lke: Oh, you are not allowed to just grind in Kur. You have to, but you won't be able to before you grind more favor, more crafts, more meditation, more alchemy, whatever. Now I also have to say, that this is the part most players (who leavve in 2 hours) don't even come to, they don't even know of it at all. But this is something that ruins the fun in grind, because (as Kha said) it DISRUPTS the gameplay. So there you are, thinking, well, I can skip Kur, I can probably grind some dungeons, but it's not very rewarding to farm in Kur most of the time. So from a players standpoint, not only you won't become decently more powerful by grinding up to lvl 35-40, you also have that additional pressure on you, which makes you even weaker. Begs the question, what did I played this game for before? all that grind? Did I achieved exactly like nothing at all?

If the Kur would be a lvl 100-125 level locations with 3-5 warning signs "Go get some winter gear first, noob! You won't be able to farm/grind here, that's for the hardcore lovers!" I wouldn't probably mind it at all. First of all because there would probably be an alternative, secondly, because I would know why do I want to grind more to be able to grind in Kur at all. But nope, you get thrown into it @ lvl 40 without any gear, meditation whatsoever and you just have to deal with it. With the disrupted gameplay, you have to endure it as a player. Why? Just Why? If the max is 125, 40 is a third of a character and that poor lvl 40 already has to endure DISRUPTED gameplay.

Speaking of character progression in MMO's, high-levels usually have the best fast travelling options (I mean teleportation here), the can automate some farming or have it easy. Again, not the case here in Gorgon. We had a kinda "experienced players option: BC and Mutated Toes" that made surveying much faster and the game through that much more enjoyable. But no, let's nerf the mutated toes to shit, because the players obviously don't run around enough. Make them grind slower @ higher levels, because it's much fun for a lvl 70 to collect redwall crystals to lvl-up crafts faster and more effectively. Right.

The game is not bad. But the GAMEPLAY suffers a lot. If I have to grind 24/7 (which I actually do, because favor, councils, skills, etc), at least give me the options to grind faster and easier when I level up. Because that is what makes it fun. That's the progress, it makes you want to grind certain stuff to achieve smth, anything, really. Example: Why would I grind for a BC/Shield gear set? Why would I level up BC and Shield @ all? Right, because I knew that it will make my life in the game easier, doing stuff like Surveying, that I will enjoy it MUCH more.

And then, figuratively speaking, came the angry dev and said: "You're having too much fun, let me nerf this and that, because frankly you shouldn't have it easier when you level up, you should have it harder, because you know, you character becomes weaker and weaker as the game progresses". And that just doesn't make sense to me. Killing higher level mobs, leveling favor, etc is already a challenge of sorts in the new zone, especially in PG, where, If i recall the older blog post correcty "Killing one monster of the same level should take 15-30 seconds". Begs the question again, 30 seconds in Kur or Gazluk? How disruptive and not-fun-at-all is that?

And the biggest Issue I have with it, is that the game gives you no option to beat that cold "once and for all". Like, so that I will be able to grind Panthers in Kur for an hour without ever paying attention to the Body Heat. Ok, even half an hour. No, theres no such option. You can raise the "time" by having winter gear and the meditation buff and the universal mitigation from BC and the alchemy potion, but that is too much grind and skills and not even half an hour in Kur outdoors. So, what's even the point?

[Grobyddonot]

Just came across my mind... What if PG as it is now, was a released Single Player game? Would I cheat and how?

Well, I would certainly hack and disable Body Heat/Dehydration/Breathing and give myself a bit more movement speed. And that's about it. Perfect non-disruptive grindy gameplay for me. For Starters.

Theres also more gameplay related stuff, like going out of combat takes ages (3-20 seconds) even after you kill the target and it has to be fixed, but I didn't want to mention it yet.

Maybe, the devs, have an evil plan to add the "Ignore the weather" ability to Weather Witching for an hour @ lvl 125 that will enable you to grind full-on in places like Gazluk, etc. But it's not in the game yet and as for now, that cold mechanic is very disruptive.

Another idea...
We and the devs btw, could make a simple forum Poll and collect the data as to how many Players actually farm monsters (monsters, not mining or fishing, etc) in Kur outdoors for an hour or longer. I could even bet it won't be more than 25. (I actually saw 3-5 HIGH level players at most). It'll give the objective feedback on the cold mechanics in Kur.


P.S. Yes, Yes, I get all the ideas of being original and providing an additional challenge to players and all the other intentions and stuff...
But the fact of the matter is: as of now, it simply doesn't work. not properly, not fun, not positively. It's disruptive and makes you hate the zones. So, change it(for instance much more body heat both on character and items), give better means to beat it (cold potions that let you ignore it for an hour for example) or remove it.

[Tagamogi]

Thanks, Grobbyddonot. Good points. Touching on a couple areas where I disagree with you a bit:

I like the idea of a zone being inherently different, in ways that cannot be ignored. For example, I think the sandstorms in Ilmari are well done - you always have to watch out for them when you are in the zone, but dealing with them doesn't feel like an onerous chore. Hm, actually, that's where I can definitely be ok with higher levels taking less damage from the storm, to a point where they don't have to be nearly as careful as a lower level character. I still think they should have *some* incentive to not just stand in the storm though.

So, I like the idea of Kur being different and not just by having white graphics. I'm not sure that I think higher levels should automatically be able to deal better with the cold. Something like a cold resistance skill that could be raised by spending time in Kur would make more sense to me, but I'm not sure if a skill that everyone has to level would necessarily be fun either.

Tacking a cold resist onto Endurance wouldn't solve the problem for level 40 characters though - why would they want to be in the zone instead of just skipping it? I think you are right that the current rewards for being outside in Kur don't make up for the extra effort the zone requires.

I made a set of cold resist gear that I'm actually pretty ecstatic about. I had combat skills in the 50s but was using level 30-40 armor, and managed to hit the leatherworking skill to make level 50 winter armor just when I needed it. So, I got nice upgrades with minimal effort and needing cold resist gave me the incentive to actually make some gear for myself for a change instead of just waiting for drops, which was fun. Couple problems with this though:
1. The reason I reached that level in leatherworking is that I completed work orders in Amulna. Which I of course reached by running through Kur first. Yes, I could have just made endless leather armor to level up in leatherworking instead and vendored it, but it's so much more fun doing work orders.
2. Now that I've made the gear, I still haven't spent any time in outside Kur. It's not that I hate the zone, it's just that I don't really know what I'd want to do there besides run through it to get to other places, and the cold just gives me this tiny disinclination to go exploring. I do like the northern part of the zone, but to hang out there, I have to run through the southern part first and I'm just kind of tired of all the running I do through it already just to get to the outpost.
I still want to spend more time in Kur, but for now,trying out the wolf and yeti caves is much higher on my fun list. It's some kind of combination of travel time + cold mechanics + where is the cool stuff.

On topics other than the cold, I don't have a problem with a relatively short period of time to stay underwater. My main gripe there is that swimming on the surface of the water to get to the point where I want to dive requires some pretty crazy double-key smashing at the moment. Unless I'm doing it all wrong, in which case I'd want swimming without holding my breath to be a pretty obvious game mechanic.

I'm giving the developers a pass on mutated toes.The reason it's such an important skill to me is that it's the only (easy, long-lasting) way to travel fast *right now*. That's not intended to be that way forever though. From an alpha perspective, it would have been much much more fun if they'd tackled faster travel alternatives before nerfing mutated toes, but in the ultimate development of the game, I think nerfing mutated toes is not a bad idea. Us having fun is second to development progressing at the moment. I wish development priorities would match my priorities better, but well, if they promise us better travel options, I'll wait to see how mounts are implemented before worrying too much.

[Citan]

So basically the areas with more of their content completed are fun, and the ones that aren't done are not fun. Thanks for the feedback. :)

Seriously, though... obviously there are mechanics we're still working on, like cold weather. They take time to iterate on. You're allowed to find them un-fun, and I want you talk about them, and I appreciate the feedback when they aren't fun -- or when they are.

Bet let's leave that aside for a moment. I can tell that you're frustrated with the game in general, based on all your insults and complaints, and here's the thing: you are completely right that you're at a grind. And that won't change until the game is more complete. It won't happen next month or the month after that or the month after that -- we'll add more content and add/evolve game systems, but the game will still be far from complete. You will continue to hit grindy areas and run into game mechanics that suck. Finishing this game will take all of 2017, and it will be evolving that whole time. That includes both the content AND the game mechanics. And the art and GUI too, for that matter.

So either you can deal with some grinding and annoyances and nerfs while we keep working, or you can go play something else for a while. I completely understand doing so. Lots of long-time players take breaks, and I think that's healthy. Your character will be here when you come back.

[drivendawn]

Very well put Citan and pretty much what I was trying to say.

[Crissa]

When I was an analyst for MMOGchart, 10% retention through the sign-up to playing was considered baseline.

[cratoh]

I liked the cold weather in Gazluk, I grinded a few hours, hit level 70, made level 70 amazing winter armor, and now its fine.

[Tsugumori]

I get the dynamic of.. lets say.. "I'm in the Snazzy Water Bottle Society and I have a snazzy bottle of water. Someone insults," (not even insults - shares their opinion on my bottle water and its different to what I think), "..how dare they!" However, at the end of the day I still have friends in my Snazzy Water Bottle Society, and I m still in possession of my sweet, snazzy water bottle, so what does it really matter.

[Society = PG Community...] [Water Bottle = PG] - -> Just for those who may have actually thought there was a water bottle society and wanted to join. My deepest apologies. There isn't one.

PG White Knights, lower your (s)words!

Someone created a thread and shared their opinion. Just because it isn't the opinion you share, i.e. negative/opposite of what you think, take a step back and weigh it up objectively. I'm as invested in PG as the next person but this didn't make me want to saddle up my keyboard and joust his point of view!

If anything, I kind of laughed.


...I've experienced the temperatures way below zero in the northern parts of the world, but look, I'm still alive. But yeah, I wasn't fighting panthers there who gave me bananas and lemons, but nvm.

I mean.. too true. xD