Amutasa the Carpentry trainer or why consistancy is important.

[Oqua]

So Amutasa in Rahu trains carpentry but why is it that suddenly I am required to learn all the previous recipes to learn the high level ones?

Consistency is a good thing so why the sudden change in the carpentry skill? I do not recall any other crafting skill having such a sudden shift.

[ShieldBreaker]

How long have you been playing? Just thinking if you gained recipes way back, maybe it was different before. I feel like most things in crafting and combat require you to know the lower level versions first. Cooking doesn't follow that pattern for sure, you can skip levels of leatherworking when buying the recipe books. I think you can learn gold statues before silver statues, and you don' have to learn the alchemy inks in the logical order, but those all happen to be scroll/book based learning.

I do get confused as to why somethings you seem to be able to skip around, and others require each level in turn. But I can't off hand recall what I skipped around on and it would have been a long time ago so the possible exists that the underlying system changed.

[Oqua]

That is a fair point however its been a short amount of time since I caped tailoring and I do not recall having to learn everything in tailoring, nor did I Suddenly have to learn prerequisites for tailoring past 50.

The sudden shift i think is what bothers me. If you believe that players should have to learn all the "prerequisite" skills then how strong is that belief if you only put it into place so late in the crafting skill, and from what I can tell what appears to be a singular crafting skill.

[Mikhaila]

Rahu has some odd things, possibly they are experimenting with things or just mixing things up. I was surprised when i had to choose between two trainers and favor goes down with one as it goes up with the other. Some skills only learnable if you buy a day pass to go into the evil side. Might be a case of of actually not trying to be consistent.

[Oqua]

I sure do love it when the rules suddenly change oh boy.

Tell me does the rahu flower arranging require all of the sub skills? what about the tailoring from rahu? or the toolcrafting? skinning? leatherworking?

its not much of an experiment to suddenly change the nature of learning skills if you only do it for one skill trainer and if I recall correctly it is only the "weapon" recipes that this applies to, I do not believe it applied to Amutasa teaching the benches or stools.

Using the above examples it would be more of a fair comparison if your toolcrafting favor changed suddenly part way through the favor/learning process or only applied to some methods of gaining favor.

Rahu may be "different" but excluding Amutasa it follows its own consistency rules. Even the new experimental method with Nishika follows its own consistent rules hang out before learning becomes available, it self a turn on the previous hang out to gain the recipe system.

[Quanzhigao]

You need to learn great spring fairy recipes before you can learn amazing, but do not have to learn great cloth recipes before amazing cloth recipes.

[Oqua]

You need to learn great spring fairy recipes before you can learn amazing, but do not have to learn great cloth recipes before amazing cloth recipes.

two so we got two one armor and one weapon trainer good gawd is a little consistency too much to ask for?


Edit: I sure love being forced to learn recipes that I skipped because they will never get used, when was the last time you saw anyone who needed anything max enchanted for lv 50? or lv60? but you got to learn them so you can make the lv70 but only for weapons and apparently Fairy Armor but only those the other crafting skills get a pass.

[Tagamogi]

Before you get too excited about inconsistencies, keep in mind that this is a beta game in active development which means bugs and changing designs and well, inconsistencies at times. There used to be some weapon abilities that allowed you to skip tiers. That got patched out. My assumption is that obvious tiers in crafting skills are intended to be similarly required and the devs just haven't gotten around to updating everything yet, but I could be wrong.

( Fwiw, yes, I have made level 50 or 60 max-enchanted armor before. I'm fond of the Animal Nexus and have accumulated quite a few winterprizes as a side effect, so it seems reasonable enough.)

[Oqua]

Before you get too excited about inconsistencies, keep in mind that this is a beta game in active development which means bugs and changing designs and well, inconsistencies at times. There used to be some weapon abilities that allowed you to skip tiers. That got patched out. My assumption is that obvious tiers in crafting skills are intended to be similarly required and the devs just haven't gotten around to updating everything yet, but I could be wrong.

( Fwiw, yes, I have made level 50 or 60 max-enchanted armor before. I'm fond of the Animal Nexus and have accumulated quite a few winterprizes as a side effect, so it seems reasonable enough.)

Let me just check yep history has shown us that caped content gear is quickly replaced when the level cap expands. sure I mean you might have made it in the past but given how crafting works and the material requirements I cant believe that any player is going to look at 50/60 max gear and desire to put in the work when 70 is just right around the corner only a few hours grind away.

inconsistencies ignored become standard practice, further that logic is compounded with its always been like that since alpha/beta....its quite circular logic and has no real bearing on if the practice is or should be when compared to the rest of the crafting system.

Edit: use and demand aside why would you force a player to learn A to learn B?

[Tagamogi]

Edit: use and demand aside why would you force a player to learn A to learn B?

For combat skills, this makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise, it really encourages power-leveling of skills so that you only have to buy the top tier abilities and save lots of money not training any of the intermediate abilities.

For crafting skills, /shrug. There is some logical sense in assuming that someone who wants to learn how to make an amazing piece of gear would first need to know how to make a decent piece of gear of the same type. I can't say I mind much either way, but it seems reasonable enough to have crafting training function similarly to combat training.

More of a side track but iirc, I learned the level 70 max-enchanted recipes before the lower level max-enchanted recipes. Eventually I picked up the lower level recipes for completeness sake. Later still, I got a few work orders for 50-60 gear, and decided to make some max-enchanted pieces with gems that matched my skills at those levels, keeping the best. It's really not much of a hassle, and since I don't have any intention of playing my alt skills at the level cap anyway, max-enchanted 50/60 gear works perfectly fine for me.
Now, initially I was quite happy to skip the lower level recipes to save money ( especially since I couldn't make maximized obsidian yet), but objectively, I don't think it would be at all unreasonable to require me to learn the lower level recipes of the same type first...

[Oqua]

Sounds like your argument boils down to I did not have to I chose too, I got that luxury, but you...you dont get that luxury, you get forced into it.

Your analogy to combat skills is perfect so tell me what combat skill allows you to skip Skill 2 and go from 1 to 3?

If you need to learn all of the lower skills to learn the higher then why is it not uniform? Further why is it with Carpentry only applied to the "weapons" and not the other tiered items?

You could also make a case that what does max enchanted 50 gear have to do with max enchanted 60 gear or 70 gear? the wood is different so is the "skill" required, its not even like blacksmithing or toolcrafting where you can make A and then use A as part of the items needed to make B.

Why Carpentry and Fairy Spring Armor alone? if you are confident in this line of logic then it should be applied to all crafting skills otherwise your indecisiveness is actually a logical argument against having it at all.

As it stands I do not think it makes logical sense for these few skills to be singled out, either all or nothing, but hey I base my arguments in logic.

[Tagamogi]

Before I get distracted again: The main point I was trying to get around to is that, imo, making a bug report to bring it to the devs' attention and moving on is probably the simplest thing all around.

Ok, shinies, distractions, opinions, speculations:
I'd guess that carpentry weapons and spring fairy armor were added at different times from the other crafted items (later?), and that at that time having lower-level prerequisites seemed like a good idea to Citan. I don't think the current discrepancies are intentional design, just stuff getting added at different times and design stages.

All combat skills that learned abilities from scrolls used to allow you to learn those abilities out of order since the scrolls didn't check whether you'd learned the lower level ability first. I had several sword abilities out of sync that way, which was actually a bit of a nuisance in the old UI since it would display skills in the order of "most recently learned first" not "highest level first". That was a bug, it got patched. Similarly, I think the crafting inconsistencies are likely to be a bug that will get patched eventually.

If we are going to debate whether crafting skills should require you to learn lower tier recipes first, I'm slightly in favor but won't be heart-broken if they don't. I would actually agree with you there that having some consistency in whether they do or not would be good, but I can live with them being randomly weird, too.

[Oqua]

I can understand that logic however I cant find any information to support the piecemeal theory. As far as I am able to tell from dev blogs and patch notes that I can find Rahu was put in place in one lump patch, expansion style, or am I just missing and not finding that information?

[Citan]

The intent is that you must learn the earlier levels of anything numbered (Ability #5 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=5) requires knowing Ability #4 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=4) ), and similarly for any recipes with clear level steps ("Decent" is a prerequisite for "Nice" recipes). When you find a case where that doesn't happen, it's just a data bug, please report it in game!

(And yes, we've gone back and forth on the pros and cons of this during development, which is where lots of the data problems came from: different iterations of ideas. There are some quality-of-life benefits to letting you learn recipes out of order, but ultimately I decided that the negatives far outweigh the positives. For a long time I was trying to find a way to hybridize it: to let you learn the low-level recipes out of order, but then start having requirements at 50 or 60. That change is too abrupt and unintuitive, though, as this thread shows! So now all recipes should have their earlier versions as a prerequisite.)