The Economy is lacking

[Azarik]

Currently all I have really seen of some player interaction trading is base resources. An economy of laziness for lack of a better term. It is just based on what higher levels dont want to do themselves, like gather mushrooms or something. Which is fine to an extent for the poor and lower levels to have a way to money. But it seems to end there and that is due to the way gear works and lack of PVP.

From what I have gathered gear drops are tailored to the skills you are using at the time. I switch to fire magic and suddenly I get gear tailored to it. While nice early game this is very bad and detrimental to an economy. It has turned so much gear into vendor trash. Even though there seems to ve different rarities it is just trash. Why buy something from someone knowing you will get something just as good if not better as loot? Gear drops need to be more random and not just for you to use, so you can trade with others. The point of an MMO is to interact with others afterall.

Lack of PVP is also a crucial detriment to an economy. Like it or not it is a core to MMOs. Now I know this community gets triggered by PVP talk but it is needed. Dont get me wrong it doesnt need complex pvp like ESO. Runescape style with full loot and a pvp zone would do just fine. Balance isnt hard as long as each method is viable. You could even work in some gear bonuses against certain damage types so you could build to be a fire mage killer then shit yourself at the sight of an ice mage. It wouldnt be hard to have such basic pvp.

As fot how PVP effects PVE, well that is simple. If you have a group that doesnt like skilling and only wants PVP they have to buy gear from the PVE people, enhanced vy full loot pvp. It is wonderful to have the world go around like that. If a game is too much PVE you end up with a community of blacksmiths trying to sell each other swords, it doesnt work.

Im not saying it has to be added now, there is still plenty to do witg PVE. Just nearing the time for full release PVE should be done enough for this basic PVP style to ve added. The plan has to be there, rather than just we are skipping pvp. Too much PVE and you have a co op RPG not an MMO.

[Leodane]

I think maybe you're playing the wrong MMO for you.

It's fine that you like to play a certain way, but everything you list as a negative about this game are the things I like the most about it. I like that lowbies can make money gathering things for sale, and I like that high level players can decide to spend time to save money or spend money to save time. I LOVE that my gear comes from monsters and not an auction house - it gives me a reason to risk my neck in dungeons with monsters around my level. I love that there is no PvP - nearly 100% of the balance discussions in these forums have a productive, positive tone, and I think it is BECAUSE there is no real PvP - improving an underpowered skill results in an overall gain for the entire player base, not a gain for users of that skill and a loss for everyone playing against that skill.

I respect that you enjoy a certain type of game, but I don't think you're going to be happy with this one.

[Azarik]

Lowbies making money like that is fine. My point is that it shouldnt be the entire economy. Getting gear from drops is one thing, having it tailored made for you is another. Specific gear should come from luck of a drop, trading, or crafting.

Balancing can be done without effecting skills too much, it is often a mistake made in MMOs to nerf and buff them too much. You just need gear witg bonuses and weaknesses to focus builds on rather than what skills are most powerful.

You say this is the wrong MMO for me, but are you sure you want an MMO? Because honestly the way I see things working as they are this game is about as MMO as Monster Hunter.

[Aionlasting]

I think you've touched on an interesting dilemma with the loot system and its effects on the economy. There was a time when your skill set did not affect the loot that dropped. It was tied to what belt you were wearing.. lol. I don't know if prior to that , we had a system that disregarded your belt's skillsets and was completely random, because I wasn't paying too much attention before the belt system. I was playing the game in a web browser at that time and very confused about the whole experience.

I do think the loot system creates a problem for the economy being only requests for crafting materials by high level players as this tends to be what you mostly see for sale on vendors and what the request boards have but I also don't think PVP is the answer to this.

This issue can be addressed by changing entirely how loot drops or decreasing the frequency that your skillset effects drops at both of which don't require attention to pvp.

[Mikhaila]

You're so focused on wanting PVP that you can't see the economy all around you. This isn't whatever other game you are used to, it doesn't behave the same. You're conclusions are incorrect and then you think PVP is the answer.

-The economy is huge. The amount of buying and selling going on is very surprising for the population.
-There are many ways to make money, so many ways, because players are going through materials to raise skills continuously.
-People need :
All metal slabs
All wood
Gems
Rubywalls
Fruit
Meat
Spices of all types
Any type of claw, eyeball, tail....I spent days buying supplies for Shaman Infusions, and would gladly have bought from a player, hundreds of each.
Rare Skill books
Recipe that only drop off monsters
Poetry books,
Inks , Acids and other things that are only player crafted.

Finished products always in demand:
-storage boxes
-arrows
-winter armor
-food
-drinks ............Just this catagory is huge. Food and snacks are a resource all players burn through.
-Alchemy potions.

The list goes on and on. I can't even keep my vendor full for a day. Any raw material sells out, finished goods sell well. I tried to restock twice a day and just wore myself out.

Economy is buying and selling of anything in the game between players. It's currently very robust.

[Mikhaila]

So far I haven't seen anything you've said that shows that an economy needs PVP.

Nor any proof that PVP is essential for an MMO. We could argue this one for years, but you can't just say "if you're an mmo you have to have PVP".

And saying "Balancing shouldn't be to hard" is just silly. You have no idea of what it would take. But you're insisting someone else do the work.

[Azarik]

An economy that is just basic bitch grunt work is not one that is robust. It is one that is lazy. It boils down to I dont want to collect my own materials, you go do it for me newbie.

I havent found sword and armor crafting yet, but if and when it is in you wont find people buying your crafted gear then. You cant sell a sword to a blacksmith and you have an entire community of blacksmiths. Fletching I know is in, and in this if I am using a bow and the game isnt broad enough to keep me busy with more things I will just make my own arrows. Why would I ever buy arrows? If I looked at the economy and saw gathering is the best thing to sell I would skip the middle man and gather what I need.

If you cant understand the simple concept of how PVP and PVE have a symbiotic relationship I cant help you more than I already have. PVPers can litterally boil down to this bores me, but gathering is easier than training crafting myself so I will sell materials to fund my PVP. Giving PVE crafters resources and the ability to actually sell their wares. I want to sell swords, not metal ingots.

[Krustydog]

Just my opinion-WoW is a pve game. It's all about raiding. But truth be told the glory years were because of pvp. When they added arena the game sky rocketed. Now that they are ignoring and have lost their pvp base the game is fading. Just make it like UO Fel/Tram. You don't want to pvp? Don't go to Fel. BUT Fel awarded double resources so made it worthwhile. UO was a magnificent game with a place for everybody. I would love to see this game be the same.

[Oqua]

Let me ask you a very fair question. If whatever your idea of a "perfect pvp system" was implemented how would it effect the economy as it is now?

In my experience there are two basic types of pvp: pvp for nothing gained that can be traded/used/sold ect.

and the more popular pvp where you pvp for the goal of getting "stuff" be it equipment or things that may or may not be traded/sold.

If they put in type 1 it wont effect the economy, if they put in type 2 it would have to be "better" then the stuff or equipment that is out there already making those crafting/gathering skills obsolete.

So how would pvp effect the economy? people are going to do combat or not, pvp generally does not excite the not combat player into combat, so again how would pvp change that?

[Citan]

Hey guys, we aren't going to add PvP centric features, and we aren't going to add item destruction (which is why PvP can onstensibly help an MMO's economy). Those are not the only way to make an economy work, and in my opinion they cause a million times more problems than they solve.

We've already tried the notion of item destruction with our player base during alpha (in the form of crafting recipes that have a chance to destroy your items -- nobody used them no matter how good they were). Losing items is literally never a fun thing to happen. If the game offers any alternative methods to get or use gear that avoids a chance to lose items, players will always take those routes every single time. Human beings are loss-averse. We could MAKE players lose items by forcing universal item loss. But this is a fun game, not a punishment simulator. We are not going to be destroying players' items.

And even if we did, PvP economies are always shitty anyway. Yeah, the crafters get more work, but players are miserable, always hoarding their best gear and never using it because it might break or get lost. Using "good enough" gear all the time, and always trying to make sure you have a big pile of shit gear to use in case problems arise. That's not fun. It's boring meta-management in order to prevent bigger losses. We already have plenty of meta-management and I'm not adding more in order to appease PvP hawks.

---

That said, don't mistake the in-game item creation recipes for all of the game's crafting. Those are recipes for solo players -- or players with close friends who also play -- to create gear. They aren't supposed to replace group hunting for gear. Group monster-hunting and solo item-crafting are two alternative ways to reaching the same goal of having good gear. Neither are designed with inter-player trading in mind.

At the highest levels of the game (which are not yet implemented), crafting will take on additional roles in the form of temporary but long-term buffs (e.g. sword makers can add +10% damage to your sword that lasts for a real-time month). Other transaction-based crafting interactions already exist, such as trading augmentations.

Those sorts of interactions will become more critical at high level. But they will never be needed at low level because low level players already have more than enough things to worry about as it is.

---

The idea that PvP or item-loss "fixes" a game's economy is based on the notion that players will stick around and suffer through a lot of punishment, literally suffering for years because the game is just so damned good otherwise. The idea that a UO-style Trammel scenario could work in a major modern game is 100% fantasy. Players have hundreds of MMO choices now, and since they don't HAVE to suffer through that shit, they simply won't. Rule of thumb: if a game design requires the constant anguish of players in order to work, it's not coming back.

But hey, maybe there's a game design that's fun enough for that. (This isn't it.) And maybe there's a community out there willing to slog through constantly being beaten back to the stone age in order to play this fun game for years. But Project: Gorgon's community has not shown any willingness to do that. I guess more importantly, I personally am not willing to do that, so it ain't happening.

But if you have a brilliant idea for how to make it work, a way to keep PvPers from the inevitable burnout that creates ghost-towns ("it's dead now, but it had a great crafting community for a while" being the epitaph of too many MMOs), then I encourage you to give it a shot. I'd love to cross-promote with other indie MMOs who tailor to different audiences. But please don't try to shove those ideas here where they very clearly don't belong.

[Mikhaila]

I havent found sword and armor crafting yet, but if and when it is in you wont find people buying your crafted gear then. .

And yet I sell 20 pieces of crafted armor per day. More if I had the time to make more. And since I need materials, i buy them when i have no time to go get them. Gee, look at the economy?

Then you make some BS statement: If you cant understand the simple concept of how PVP and PVE have a symbiotic relationship I cant help you more than I already have.

So if you can't actually show how PVP is needed for an economy, just say "you don't understand" and move on.

[Vertabreaker]

I like it just the way it is sounds like OP just wants eveything handed to them and not have to work for nothing.

[Mikhaila]

I think it's more that he is used to another game where they had PVP and an economy that support it. It makes me wonder which one and when it died, also.

A lot of what Citan said brought back memories. I played Ultima Online for a long time, until EQ came out. Started in Yew, and never made it to the capitol. I couldn't get there without dying, even with great gear. First single person could handle the roving bands of PVPers who could care less about being flagged as a murderer. And who used good gear anyways? you horded it for times when you were going out with a dozen people to a dungeon. You wore crap gear and stuff you didn't mind losing. Because you were always going to lose it. I remember something of an economy, mostly because there were merchants everywhere. But it was a bit feeble at best.

EQ had a great economy in the early couple of years. Big market places with live people auctioning stuff off, meeting up and selling in person. For my server it was the tunnel in East Commons, for others it was a spot in Greater Faydark. Then they added the hub up on the moon, and an automated market, and it all went silent. Lots of buying and selling, but less personal. It was convenient to find what you wanted immediately, no hunt, no dealing with someone , no trading. Just convenient, and somewhat boring, buy and sell. I miss East Commons.

[Azarik]

I like it just the way it is sounds like OP just wants eveything handed to them and not have to work for nothing.

That is literally the exact opposite of what I have been saying. There are many ways to work, but if I am crafting all my own gear that isn't an MMORPG. As it stands the game plays out like a single player RPG. I craft my own shit, I gather my own resources, I kill mobs by myself. There is literally no reason for me to ever interact with people. At most I might not be able to solo a boss.

But I think it is pretty clear the Dev doesn't even understand how an economy works with PVP. But he has cultivated a community of carebears who don't actually understand how older MMOs worked, so I don't know why I expect better.

Eve has been around for 15 years and is 95% PVP and still maintains over 20k players. Only a few people bother with crafting and such there, but it is greatly needed so it works well for those who enjoy it. It works well in ESO too. It has great PVP, not everyone enjoys grinding certain crafting thus it gives rise to people who enjoy PVE.

Like I said though when it comes to this game you are never going to be able to sell swords to blacksmiths, arrows to fletchers, potions to alchemists, etc. I never once suggested forcing people to PVP, all I want is to have the option. Anyone who knows anything about MMOs should be able to understand having options and multiple paths to the same objective. Give a decent sized zone, full loot PVP in there, and be done with it. You never have to go there if you don't want. But you people get triggered more than a tumblrina at a Stormfront convention with the mere mention of letting people PVP, it's incredibly stupid and selfish. My only regret is I gave the game a second chance to try out crafting and such only to find it boils down to basic bitch grunt work and now i'm out $40. I should have listened to my first instinct apparently.

[Aionlasting]

So Azarik, the one with no MMORPG game design knows how a MMORPG economy works but Citan, the one with years of development, including lead development, and who is currently developing this game, doesn't?

Comon man... I agreed with you that the way items drop in the game, in that you always get items specific for your skillset, creates an interesting delima in the market place as you don't need to trade with anyone for gear, but you're definitely in the wrong when it comes to the accusations leveled against Citan. I'm sure he has looked into game economics and had insider knowledge, considering he can influence those economies through design, enough to know what he is doing. He just doesn't have any interest in making this a pvp centric game. An economy revolving around pvp and its losses is certainly a game that has shifted away from pve and towards pvp. This will never be the case here.

I'd love to hear citan's thoughts on the shift away from the 'belt' design that influenced gear drops towards the active combat skills being the deciding factor and if he's happy with how things are playing out in terms of item drops, their effects on the economy, and the perceived lack of trading of those dropped items between players.

[Azarik]

Read what he said about it. What he said is easily disproven. But you don't have to shift focus to PVP to give the option. The economy part would simply be that you could sell finished items to these people rather than the entire economy being for basic resources. It's a simple option and people could do what they want from there. Do it, don't do it but it would only add to the game.

[IndigoBlue]

I'm just going to say one of the reasons I am sticking with PG is because PVP is not a planned feature. I do not enjoy PVP, I find the people most attracted to PVP to be deeply annoying (that is a personal thing, and I am not saying PVP'ers are all annoying), and I typically avoid PVP in games that have both PVP and PVE.

These days, it seems like all the AAA titles are either totally PVP, or they limit the best gear for the PVP players.

As for the economy here in PG, I am at a loss why so many people say "it's not working" or 'it's crappy". Yes, being able to search of items being sold by players would be really great. Sure, the sometime lag in the Marketplace building sucks. But for goodness sakes, don't call the economy in PG bad just because it's not like the games you have played.

I just migrated from ESO, and while I still love that game, I 100% believe the North American Server economy in ESO is not as healthy as PG's. Among my peeves with ESO is that gear isn't worth much until it's level 160, lower level gear is a horrible grind to find because few sell it, and low level mats are hard to come by. Then there is the "best in slot" concept, which further skews what you do in zone, how you share it with other players, and what you can make for selling it. That's just a summary, and there are annoying facets, but I'm loving the break from this that comes with Project Gorgon.

[Azarik]

I'm just going to say one of the reasons I am sticking with PG is because PVP is not a planned feature. I do not enjoy PVP, I find the people most attracted to PVP to be deeply annoying (that is a personal thing, and I am not saying PVP'ers are all annoying), and I typically avoid PVP in games that have both PVP and PVE.

These days, it seems like all the AAA titles are either totally PVP, or they limit the best gear for the PVP players.

As for the economy here in PG, I am at a loss why so many people say "it's not working" or 'it's crappy". Yes, being able to search of items being sold by players would be really great. Sure, the sometime lag in the Marketplace building sucks. But for goodness sakes, don't call the economy in PG bad just because it's not like the games you have played.

I just migrated from ESO, and while I still love that game, I 100% believe the North American Server economy in ESO is not as healthy as PG's. Among my peeves with ESO is that gear isn't worth much until it's level 160, lower level gear is a horrible grind to find because few sell it, and low level mats are hard to come by. Then there is the "best in slot" concept, which further skews what you do in zone, how you share it with other players, and what you can make for selling it. That's just a summary, and there are annoying facets, but I'm loving the break from this that comes with Project Gorgon.

What I am getting from the way you put this is you are saying you enjoy the game because only your fun is allowed and other people are wrong with how they have fun, so you like that PG neglects giving people options on how to play. Which is kind of a staple in MMORPGs.

[Rhawkas]

It looks to me (based on what Azarik has said in this thread and the one about nerfing archery) that Project: Gorgon simply isn't the game he's looking for, so he wants the developers to change it to be that game. The "economy problem" just comes off sounding like an excuse because he keeps coming back to PvP.

[alleryn]

As long as i can dance for tips i'd say the economy is doin just fine.

[Azarik]

It looks to me (based on what Azarik has said in this thread and the one about nerfing archery) that Project: Gorgon simply isn't the game he's looking for, so he wants the developers to change it to be that game. The "economy problem" just comes off sounding like an excuse because he keeps coming back to PvP.

I just expect upfront advertising. Because as it stands PG is no more an MMORPG than Monster Hunter.

PVP or not the economy is lacking, that is a fact. When the entire market is just selling base materials that is a failure. A real economy would revolve around selling the items you actually make from the materials. As I have said before you aren't going to sell swords to a town full of blacksmiths, or arrows to a bunch of fletchers. The game being mostly PVE means it is half killing mobs half crafting. Unless you some how get off on doing nothing but killing mobs all day long you'll end up crafting at some point. And if you're an archer would you spend time crafting swords you don't need or arrows that you do?

As it stands I kill all my own mobs, I craft my own gear, I do everything myself. I could play offline, hypothetically, and my experience wouldn't change overall. Maybe get a little better being less crowded but that is of no consequence. That makes the game an RPG, not really an MMORPG.

Having given it more thought I have a PVE solution that would achieve the same goal. SWTOR has a crafting system where you can't be everything. I honestly forgot about it because I really only played it for the story. But this is an overall problem for PG. You can train every single skill no problem. It might take awhile to max them all but you can. If you were limited to a certain number of skills you wouldn't be able to do everything and then you would have to rely on others even in PVE, especially if crafting is done properly where the top tier items are player crafted.

For example if you could only have 3 trade skills you could craft your own arrows, potions, and food. Meaning you would have to trade with other people for your armor and such. If you got friends one could do potions another food and trade each other like that. This solves the core of my problem without PVP. Because I just want to sell actual items, not materials.

[alleryn]

You can train every single skill no problem. It might take awhile to max them all but you can
If the price of training skills to higher levels continues, it will cost what? just a measly 100 million councils to get levels 91-100 unlocked. Yeah shouldn't be hard to max everything...

[Oqua]

noun: MMORPG; plural noun: MMORPGs

an online role-playing video game in which a very large number of people participate simultaneously.


I must have missed the part about pvp in there.

[Rhawkas]

noun: MMORPG; plural noun: MMORPGs

an online role-playing video game in which a very large number of people participate simultaneously.


I must have missed the part about pvp in there.

That's okay, Azarik missed the part about... well, all of it.

I will agree that the economy is... difficult? For me at least, loot drops are generally one of three things: a replacement for something I have (which is rare), favor fodder, or vendor trash. Selling it to other players isn't even really all that realistic, since what are the odds that I'll find someone who has the same skill combo as me (required to even use the item), doesn't already have something better, and actually wants the modifiers on the item I found? Low enough that it's not really worth it for me to even bother. The same thing happens when buying items. I just browse the "Buy Used" tab at merchants and hope there's something there that's worthwhile. Otherwise I just go hunting and hope for tailored drops with useful mods.

As far as I can tell, the market for finished goods seems to be too low, since people are doing everything (or at least the crafting part) themselves. Since there's no limits on how many skills I can learn (and raising those skills gives me other benefits in the form of stats or the ability to do a greater variety of work orders), then why should I pay for finished products if I have the time to raise the skills and get the recipes myself? There's the cost of materials to consider, though depending on where you're going (or have been in the past) may play a part since you may have already collected all the materials you need to last you a long time.

I don't know what the dev's thoughts are on limiting the number of tradeskills you can learn are, but it would definitely have an impact (whether it's a desirable one or not).

[Mikhaila]

At this point, it's just silly. Azarik ignores anything anyone says. Has proved none of his points. He just wants a couple of things 1) PVP 2) everyone to admit he is right.

Did you every stop to think that maybe, just maybe, if you are screaming about a problem, and everyone else disagrees with you, that maybe the problem is you?

There is a great economy in the game, you just don't see it. There is a great game, except you don't see it. You want changes in the game, but have hardly played. And you don't get the basic idea that the developers are the ones creating the game, and not you. It's their vision of what to create. Citan has been pretty open about what he wants and doesn't want. It's there to read. He even came into the thread and told you directly. And still it goes over your head. Sorry mate, your the problem, not the game.