Quality of Life Behind EXP Walls

[Coran]

Good afternoon, everybody!

So I want to begin this small rant with two things. One, if this topic has already been covered, I apologize; my search skills need work. Second, and this one is important enough to warrant a new paragraph:

I absolutely love this game. It has provided time and time again experience after unique experience that just keeps me enjoying it and wanting more. (Just for the record, the first experience that sold me was being in the island dungeon playing with a friend on voice chat, when a super fast cow turned the corner, ran past us at incredibly high speeds, and turned another corner. My friend and I sat silently, looked at each other, and just uttered (uddered?) "Was that a cow?") I cannot stress enough my enjoyment of this game and even the serenity of simply running around a map collecting stuff for fun.

I only say the above because I want the following to come off as constructive and not angry criticism. It's just a worry I have on the horizon, and best to address it as soon as possible. With that being said . . .

I remember my first venture into Serbule Hills. As a game about exploration, I was EXCITED to run around and discover EVERYTHING. Anything I came across I would immediately pop open my map and stick down a note about it. I wanted my map to be filled with interesting notes to remind me of the cool things on the map. This is very common in the old games like Baldur's Gate, Torment, or so on. Notes were invaluable and I've never shaken that habit.

Well, as you probably figured by now, around my 4th or 5th note, I was suddenly hit with a "You cannot create any more notes." message. This . . . mildly disheartened me, but I accepted it. Perhaps a technical limitation, maybe they just wanted another form of note taking -- whatever. Didn't matter. What mattered is that there is an unfortunate limit to notes.

But suddenly, my friend points out "Oh, if you level up your Foraging, you get more Map Tacks to use."

. . . this bothered me. What does Foraging have to do with sticking notes on a map? More so, there are disturbing implications of quality of life systems hidden behind arbitrary EXP walls. Why is my UI fun being hampered by a random skill?

But, I decided to try to shrug off my note placing ways and just accept it. Move on and just forget about notes unless absolutely needed.

However, last time I played something ELSE just happened. To be honest, I don't even know WHAT happened. I killed an enemy and I leveled up SOME skill and suddenly unlocked "another" bag in my inventory. But this bag doesn't increase bag space -- It just allows for inventory arrangement / sorting.

So, now I feel it necessary to bring up this issue. I had no issues with the inventory as was, I was content with the Auto-Sort method it had and never even thought about additional bags as it was not presented to me. But now ANOTHER quality of life issue has arisen from arbitrary EXP gain in some random skill, and that now worries me. It worries me for two reasons:

1) What else am I unaware of that my character hasn't "unlocked" yet? Additionally, after discovering these quality of life unlocks, I don't think I'd want to start a new character. To have to re-earn additional map notes, bag sorting, and who knows what else is disheartening to say the least.

2) There is a large difference (especially in perception) between starting at 0 and earning 1, 2, 3, and starting at -5 and earning your way back to 0. It doesn't feel as good, or even good at all.

Right now, unlocking these quality of life things doesn't feel like starting off at 0 and getting BETTER things -- It feels like you're starting off far weaker and earning your way back to NORMAL.

Again, please note I love EVERYTHING about this game, but I'd really like the developers to rework this. Allow our characters to start at 0 and earn bonuses. Let us make all the map notes we want, and perhaps just simply earn multiple colors of map markers, so we the players can organize them better, but still be able to make all the notes we want initially (i.e. Red for rare spawns, green for Mushroom fields). Don't simply take away map markers and have us earn them back. That sucks. Let us create all the bags for organization that we want from the start, and as we level simply give us +1 Bag Space or something. THAT feels progressive, not restrictive.

I'm really hoping right now these are the only two issues, and not just two issues I've come across. I'd like not to continue playing and suddenly unlock another quality of life thing that was simply hidden from me in the beginning instead of improved upon as I played the game. I also really hope I've made my point clear and organized, as I know I can rant and get off topic (I'm also at work at the moment. :P ).

This is also my first post, so I'm sorry it's a worry / criticism. I hope anyone that has come across me in game has had pleasant experiences with me. :)

So to end the post - Thank you Devs for the amazing game that continues to excite me every time I log on. A game that teaches me something new nearly every hour I play it. A game that allows you to pick up food off the ground from helpful players only to realize it's been poisoned with iocaine after eating it. This is a fantastic game that keeps me happy, exploring, and joyful -- So please know that the above only comes from a place of love. :)

Cheers all!

[Mikhaila]

There are many, many things in this game that you can increase over time.
-Inventory space on your character.
-Bank Space
-Storage at NPC's
-How much money a vendor has to buy your stuff.
-The maximum a vendor will pay for stuff.
-Quests that unlock with faction or other quests.
-Inventory bags you can use for sorting your personal inventory.
-Map Pins.
-Number of items on consignment.
-Getting a merchant
-Number of items on a merchant.
-Recipes and skills locked behind quests and favor.
-Training to unlock level 50+ and 60+ needs favor and $$.
-Talking to certain NPC's takes a level in their language.
-Some skills have pre-requisites of other skills. Battlemagic and Toolcrafting come to mind.
-Zones that take special clothing, potions, or hydration.

There are tons of little things you can learn. It's not a linear system. It's an open world where you can explore and learn and go from one thing to another.

I wanted more map pins last night, so I went and did surveying.

[Coran]

There are many, many things in this game that you can increase over time.
-Inventory space on your character.
-Bank Space
-Storage at NPC's
-How much money a vendor has to buy your stuff.
-The maximum a vendor will pay for stuff.
-Quests that unlock with faction or other quests.
-Inventory bags you can use for sorting your personal inventory.
-Map Pins.
-Number of items on consignment.
-Getting a merchant
-Number of items on a merchant.
-Recipes and skills locked behind quests and favor.
-Training to unlock level 50+ and 60+ needs favor and $$.
-Talking to certain NPC's takes a level in their language.
-Some skills have pre-requisites of other skills. Battlemagic and Toolcrafting come to mind.
-Zones that take special clothing, potions, or hydration.

There are tons of little things you can learn. It's not a linear system. It's an open world where you can explore and learn and go from one thing to another.

I wanted more map pins last night, so I went and did surveying.

I appreciate this, but I think you missed the point of my post. Starting off with some inventory space and earning more as you adventure is starting at 0 and going to 5. Having some bank space and earning more is starting at 0 and going to 5. NPC money, relationships, vendor price increase, all those are 0 going to 5. I *WANT* the NPC to like me more so that they give me better prices on items. Having special Recipes and Skills that fell off a mob feel special. The lack of them isn't hampering, but the benefit of having them is special.

The lack of being able to make notes *IS* hampering. More so, it doesn't feel special in the slightest to "unlock" them. As above, it just makes me ask "Okay, what else are you hiding from me?" And not in the fun, exploratory way the game generally has.

Unlocking the ability to better organize your inventory is a character starting at -5 and working his or her way back to 0. It's just not fun or productive.

[BabyBlue]

I see where you are coming from but I enjoy the system in place. Instead of looking at these extra pins and bag folders as walled off content, look at them as additional benefits from leveling skills that adds to the progression system of becoming a more efficient character.

For the map pins, I believe surveying acts more as the primary skill for pins than foraging. As you survey these pins may help you track your gems and slabs, and as you survey more you become more efficient and can track more pins and anything else you may want. The bonus pin you got from foraging was just an example of how skills can intertwine and benefit eachother. Leveling Surveying will unlock more pins at a faster rate.

As for the bag folders these can be unlocked by a huge amount of skills, and require you to diversify your skillset to unlock all the folders. This encourages players to branch out and try more skills in order to become more efficient in managing their inventory. This makes since because as you use more skills you'll have much more inventory clutter.

I do agree some of these resetting by starting a new character will be tedious. I don't usually roll alts so it doesn't effect me so much but I get that.

[Crissa]

The notes and map pins are kinda tight at the beginning of the game.

I really wish there were more temporary ones we could use so we could assign more permanent ones to things we personally cared about.

Maybe alchemical tacks that last for an hour? Or for the duration of a quest (but only mark something important to the quest?)

When I started I had so many notes I needed to remember. Now that I've played for awhile, I actually have fewer I need to remember...

[Coran]

For the map pins, I believe surveying acts more as the primary skill for pins than foraging. As you survey these pins may help you track your gems and slabs, and as you survey more you become more efficient and can track more pins and anything else you may want. The bonus pin you got from foraging was just an example of how skills can intertwine and benefit eachother. Leveling Surveying will unlock more pins at a faster rate.

I've done a little bit of Surveying, but not once have I used pins for it. I look at my map, I use the Survey, I see where to go, I run over there, I use it again to zero down on it, and then I collect my Gem. Now, maybe I don't fully understand how Surveying works (It's possible, I'm still exploring the game), but from my understanding it's random where the Gems form when you Survey. Using a pin would only be useful for 3 - 5 minutes while you run over there. After that you delete the pin and move on. So -- Increasing Pins doesn't really help in this case.

And again, just unlocking a pin now makes me choose between marking the secret water entrance in Serbule, the mushroom field, a rare spawn location, and many other things I'd be unable to mark the first time I find it. Even as I level up these skills and unlock more pins, I'm not 100% inclined to go BACK to those zones and re-explore them JUST to mark stuff I wasn't able to before for arbitrary reasons.


As for the bag folders these can be unlocked by a huge amount of skills, and require you to diversify your skillset to unlock all the folders. This encourages players to branch out and try more skills in order to become more efficient in managing their inventory. This makes since because as you use more skills you'll have much more inventory clutter.

This is a personal thing for me because I am, unfortunately, a role player at the heart of me. There are some skills this character will NEVER pick up because it's just not him. Is it useful for the game? Of course. But I don't see my character doing it and so I can't bring myself to get certain skills. Does it hamper me? Of course! But I accept those changes and know I can pay Councils for the services of other characters / players for what I'm lacking in. Even the game tips say "Hey, there are a lot of skills in this game -- don't try to master them all at once. Only choose 1 or 2."

So, hiding UI elements in Skills I may never pick up (and to a point the game encourages you to not) is a rough thing. I'm just simply suggesting it can be improved, or at least hoping to create a conversation of how best to improve it.

[BabyBlue]

Using a pin would only be useful for 3 - 5 minutes while you run over there. After that you delete the pin and move on. So -- Increasing Pins doesn't really help in this case.


This is where I have an issue with the pin system, which has gotten simultaneously better and worse with the new GUI. The mentality I believe is they expect people to do surveying in chunks. You start out with 10 surveys, pin them, go collect, clear the board and repeat. You unlock enough pins, then you cab do 20 surveys at a time, pin them, blah blah blah. However Now that pins don't save until you name them and you can't place pins too closely to eachother without them combining, this process is very inconvenient to me. This leads me to just marking off four quadrants, each containing three rows with pins and then organizing the survey maps accordingly in my inventory. I don't believe this is the intended way to use pins, but it works much better for me. However the new red ring designating dig sites is much better than the old dot system.

As for the inventory folders I see your frustration there, tedious to unlock on multiple characters especially when they are specialized.

[Gruffon]

However Now that pins don't save until you name them and you can't place pins too closely to eachother without them combining, this process is very inconvenient to me.

Just a heads-up, you can right-click on the map to enter a pin with the same parameters (name, color) as the last pin you entered, allowing you to quickly place pins without first entering a name. Sometimes when I get two or more points that are really close together, I just change the color of the first pin to signify that there's more than one point in that area. I guess that wouldn't really work if you organize mineral surveys using pin colors, though.

[BabyBlue]

Wasn't aware of that! I'll toy around with it. Thanks!

[Tagamogi]

I believe the new cartography skill will eventually give map bonuses. Cartography is a pretty new introduction, so right now it doesn't do anything. I hope that eventually most map pins will be based on the cartography level, and I'm also hoping that maybe the more of a map you have explored, the more pins you can use on that particular map. (That's just player speculation, I think the dev announcement was just that cartography will do more stuff in the future.) I do agree with you that the restricted number of markers feels like it's hampering my exploration efforts.

For the inventory folders, I can go either way. I think having the folders right away might completely confuse brand-new players that are still getting used to everything else in the game. Someone else suggested to maybe have them be unlocked by a specific quest rather than certain skill levels - I think that could be interesting but I also don't mind the current system.
There are multiple skills that will unlock an inventory folder - I think 12 or so - so the odds are pretty good you'd get a folder eventually.

( Surveying, possible mini-spoiler:
You get speed bonus rewards if you pick up a new gem within a certain amount of time after surveying your last gem. So, for the best surveying results, you want to line up as many gem surveys as possible to be completed back to back.
I personally don't bother with map pins for surveying. I tend to do 50-60 surveys at once, so there are not enough pins anyway. I just sort them by quadrant and hope I don't spend too much time backtracking. (Of course, doing the initial sorting before the actual survey takes a lot of time and I get bored, so in practice I haven't done surveying in months. Oh well.))

[Mikhaila]

I appreciate this, but I think you missed the point of my post. Starting off with some inventory space and earning more as you adventure is starting at 0 and going to 5. Having some bank space and earning more is starting at 0 and going to 5. NPC money, relationships, vendor price increase, all those are 0 going to 5. I *WANT* the NPC to like me more so that they give me better prices on items. Having special Recipes and Skills that fell off a mob feel special. The lack of them isn't hampering, but the benefit of having them is special.

The lack of being able to make notes *IS* hampering. More so, it doesn't feel special in the slightest to "unlock" them. As above, it just makes me ask "Okay, what else are you hiding from me?" And not in the fun, exploratory way the game generally has.

Unlocking the ability to better organize your inventory is a character starting at -5 and working his or her way back to 0. It's just not fun or productive.

I didn't miss your point, I ignored it as I don't think it is true. The whole -5 working to 0 is just in your head. You're welcome to your opinion, but I don't see the issue.

[Coran]

I didn't miss your point, I ignored it as I don't think it is true. The whole -5 working to 0 is just in your head. You're welcome to your opinion, but I don't see the issue.

. . . that was a pretty unproductive and undeserved comment. :\

This is still early in the game -- This is the exact time to talk about these things. I'm not okay with having to unlock UI elements in a game. So let's keep it to that topic.

[Mikhaila]

. . . that was a pretty unproductive and undeserved comment. :\

This is still early in the game -- This is the exact time to talk about these things. I'm not okay with having to unlock UI elements in a game. So let's keep it to that topic.

So was your comment that I missed your point. There is this habit that when someone disagrees with a post, the reply is "you missed my point" or "you didn't read everything I said". Somehow implying that it's the other guys fault for not agreeing with you. :)

It's fine to talk about things, and it's ok to disagree. But give the other guy some credit. He may have read your post, may see the point you are trying to make, but doesn't agree with your conclusions.

On your original topic: It's perfectly fine to have to unlock more map markers with advancement in skills. You said you like to RP. What could be better than doing surveying? It fits perfectly. I gave you a ton of examples of how the game puts a lot of advantages behind skills and exploration. This is part of the game.

[Tagamogi]

It's perfectly fine to have to unlock more map markers with advancement in skills.

What does that accomplish though? If I'm a new player exploring a brand-new map, I want to put down lots of markers and notes. If I'm an experienced player running through the same zone for the 5000th time, I don't need map markers. So, there is actually very little power gain associated with earning more markers because by the time I get them, I mostly don't care about them anymore.

My map marking efforts in PG fall pretty solidly into two categories: Either I have way more pins than I need for a map and I don't care how many pins I have, or I need way more pins for a map than I have and I don't have a way of getting all the pins I want, so I use the Wiki map instead. Neither strikes me as ideal.

Surveying pins add a bit of a unique category since they are temporary map markers, so for people that use them, getting more pins is an actual power gain. I wish there was a way to disentangle the actual crafting gains from the navigation help. In my opinion, I should be able to write as much as I like on my very own map - there shouldn't be something that arbitrarily restricts me from making as many navigation help notes as I feel I need.

[Crissa]

What does that accomplish though? If I'm a new player exploring a brand-new map, I want to put down lots of markers and notes. If I'm an experienced player running through the same zone for the 5000th time, I don't need map markers.

I wish there was a way to disentangle the actual crafting gains from the navigation help.
This is what I've said about markers a few times now.

If it were markers among all my maps, the global limitation would make sense. But it's per map. There's only one thing on the Serbule map I want to mark. As I level, I get more things I want to mark permanently. I suppose at end-game there's fewer, but...

...The marks per map is highest needed when you're a newb and don't know where squat is.

[Coran]

What does that accomplish though? If I'm a new player exploring a brand-new map, I want to put down lots of markers and notes. If I'm an experienced player running through the same zone for the 5000th time, I don't need map markers. So, there is actually very little power gain associated with earning more markers because by the time I get them, I mostly don't care about them anymore.

This. This is also a really good way of looking at the flaw in the design of map markers.

If the developers would like us to unlock map things, my original post suggested colors. This way I can still use all the map markers I want, but as I level and improve the character I can unlock different colors and choose myself to either upgrade map markers with color themes or just let them be and have the note being enough. That's going from 0 (I have map markers, but they aren't anything more than generic map markers) to 5 (I have multi-colored map markers to mark off red as rare spawns, blue as points of interest, etc.).

[Tagamogi]

This is what I've said about markers a few times now.

I know. :) I do like the suggestions you've made before about temporary markers and possibly map layers. ( I think the layers was you, too.) What I really want is unlimited navigation map pins that can be placed in any location, and then anything else like colors and layers and special surveying tricks can be optionally acquired.

( I'm not sure if the map pin colors are necessarily a good incentive for leveling other skills. I miss having different pin colors on my alts but definitely not so much I feel the slightest bit inclined to level treasure cartography on them. Plus I'm still sulking because the pin colors and shapes keep changing on me. :p )