January 22, 2017 Update - Discussion!

[srand]

Patch notes over here (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?128-Patch-Notes-January-22-2017). Discussion below!

Remember, PLEASE report ALL bugs you see through the in-game report tool. (Under the big ! icon on the top of the irght-hand sidebar). You can discuss them here, of course, but reporting them in-game makes it MUCH easier for us to track them and get them fixed!

[cr00cy]

Well, looks like i have to wait for next full moon to be able to level up my wolf :( too bad i dont have gear for any other skillset. Would it be possible to allow us unlock lv 70 in diffrent way, at least temporary? For exampel from Sanja?

[Julcat]

We Lycan are cursed. Not only are we gonna be locked out until the full it is likely it will cost tokens to unlock+tokens for abilities leading to 2 months before we can get to 70 and have abilitys. :)

[ProfessorCat]

Be the first to get 70 in battle chem!

[jacksin125]

We Lycan are cursed. Not only are we gonna be locked out until the full it is likely it will cost tokens to unlock+tokens for abilities leading to 2 months before we can get to 70 and have abilitys. :)

I'm going to have to agree with this. it is an artificial way to make leveling take longer, and I have yet to see that ever work well in any videogame. Not only that, but what if you happen to be busy irl for even just 1 or 2 of the full moon days? It turns this game from a casual one to one where you might have to slip out of work to get good.

[Krakatau]

I'm going to have to agree with this. it is an artificial way to make leveling take longer, and I have yet to see that ever work well in any videogame. Not only that, but what if you happen to be busy irl for even just 1 or 2 of the full moon days? It turns this game from a casual one to one where you might have to slip out of work to get good.

This should probably be looked at. I hadn't really thought about it, but it does force people wanting to advance Lycanthrope to find time to play during a 3 day window.

[Citan]

Yes, you have to occasionally find time to play during a full moon to get the most out of lycanthropy. That's not a bug, it's a feature. In exchange, werewolf players, and ONLY werewolf players, can buy their level-ups and abilities before they meet the prerequisites. They can also pay for it in "tokens", which, it turns out, are a whole lot cheaper than Councils. :) I'm sorry that the full moon falls pretty far from this update, though.

[Spiritfingers]

I was waiting with baited breath to see what non combat skills made it in the update. Wemedge thanks for not putting Poetry on the list in this patch.

[Frostfire_]

Is the Orc race unlockable now?

[Oxlazr]

I remember the other updates being released during the full-moon and that was an inconvenience! But that aside, it's nice to see a flurry of skills being updated all at once.

I'll also quickly add that the new zone is pretty well-designed and interesting.

[cr00cy]

Well lv 60 unlock coudl be fullly done within one full moon. And all task can be doen within one, two days max.

That being said, it still feels wrong that we are locked out of new content just beause update happened on wrong day. Well i guess it wont amtter that much when game is relased (since all leves will be unlockable alredy).

I seriusly feel sorry for new(er) wolves who spend all they time levling wolf. Thye will be effectivly locke dout of 50% of they skills(and god forbid they have wolf rmor crafted... then they are really screwed). It wont matter that much for me (or other older players) because i have severla lv 60 skills, and a lot stockpiled gear for diffrent skill combinations, that i saved "just in case". And i can craft what im missing.

Well its not 1st time that wolves are locked out of new stuff becasue of full moon, but problem is we now have to wiat much longer to be able to acces new content.

Something to consider for future lv cap increaes - maybe make lv cap increase unlockable for money from trainer, and only skills from altar?

And when we are at the topick of wolf altar - can we please make huntign speed pernament skill alredy? I know i spamm about it a lot, but seriusly, its only movement boost wolf have (not counting mods for shadow feint - becasue at this point its betetr to pick mods for psotive attidue) adn its locked out durnign tiem its needed most.

[Hood]

Is the Orc race unlockable now?

not yet...itll be awhile.

[kell.shepherd]

One thing I noticed but didn't see in the notes is mob detection range has increased significantly. Not so critical for melee mobs but ranged mobs missiles will track and hit putting you into combat.

[Leninja]

I've decided to post a more detailed bug report of the 61-70 skill unlock bug here since I can't fit it all into the ingame bug reporter.

With the release of the patch I went to unlock lvl 61-70 Leatherworking. I visited Sirine in Rahu, who I had gotten to Soul Mates favor lvl before the patch. I bought the 61-70 unlock for Leatherworking and Tanning in quick succession. I paid 42k each for Tanning and Leatherworking. After I bought all of the skill unlocks I wanted in Rahu, I checked my skill menu. Tanning unlocked like usual, showing that I was lvl 63 of 70 with 3 bonus lvls and 0/7540 xp towards the next lvl. Leatherworking, however, doesn't appear to have changed in the skill menu. It says that I am lvl 66 of 60 with 6 bonus levels (the same as I was before) and suggests I visit Sirine in Rahu to earn more xp in the skill. However, when talking to Sirine, Leatherworking training lvl 61-70 isn't available in her training menu. I checked the other skills I had just unlocked in Rahu, (Toolcrafting, Carpentry, Druid and Ice Magic) and saw that Toolcrafting and Carpentry had the same problem. So 3 skills that I paid to unlock didn't unlock and I have no option to purchase them again. I was also Soul Mates with Amutasa, who teaches Toolcrafting and Carpentry, before the patch, in case that has any relevance. I tanned a couple of hides to see if Tanning worked and it appears to be gaining experience like it is supposed to. I could send you some screenshots of what the training menu looks like if that would help.

[Extractum11]

One thing I noticed but didn't see in the notes is mob detection range has increased significantly. Not so critical for melee mobs but ranged mobs missiles will track and hit putting you into combat.

Maybe it's just my imagination, but mobs also seem to be following me for a lot longer than they used to.

[jacksin125]

Yes, you have to occasionally find time to play during a full moon to get the most out of lycanthropy. That's not a bug, it's a feature. In exchange, werewolf players, and ONLY werewolf players, can buy their level-ups and abilities before they meet the prerequisites. They can also pay for it in "tokens", which, it turns out, are a whole lot cheaper than Councils. :) I'm sorry that the full moon falls pretty far from this update, though.

I constantly find myself broke, and I would probably prefer to pay with councils, because having to wait 2-3 months just to get to where other players can get in a week is sad and frustrating (Not to mention, if I actually ground for councils I could get a million or more in 2 months, which makes once-a-month tokens FAR more expensive than councils). Not only that, but artificial ways to make leveling, or getting the best gear, basically making it so that to become a top player you have to just wait, is generally one of the most disliked features in any game I play that has it (I've seen it in GW2, and every discussion about it was negative).

Now, I don't have a problem with the idea of doing quests to get tokens to spend at an altar. However, I don't like that it was designed so that I want to quit the game because I can do almost nothing until next month, and even then I still have to wait another month to unlock everything. So, I'll say this idea here, and post it as a suggestion ingame: Allow players to complete the werewolf quests and spend tokens on lvling up anytime, but only refresh the quest list once a month. Also, add more quests (tier 3 and maybe even 4 of each quest) so that a player could get everything they can grind to unlocked before the quests refresh again, but make the higher tier quests drastically harder (So go from killing 50 to 100 to 200 and so on). This would encourage lazier players to just wait until quests refreshed, but more dedicated players would be able to grind at their own speed. I personally feel like you should still only be able to do quests to get buffs during the full moon, and I feel that that would give enough of a reason for lycan players to do a ton of quests during the full moon.

EDIT: If you happen to actually consider my idea, but encounter a problem with my idea, I will be happy to do all the thinking to find solutions for you. For example, how to make the ongoing quests and full moon events work smoothly together. My favorite solution so far is to have the month-long quests grant "skill tokens", which can be used for unlocking higher levels, unlocking skills, and maybe something else as well (if you wanted to add something else later). Then, the full moon events would "override" the normal month long quests and tokens, and the full moon events would be basically the same (except that they probably wouldn't let you unlock higher lvls or skills). If you wanted, you could make skill tokens reset at the same time as normal werewolf tokens.

[drivendawn]

Really enjoyed how dangerous the new area was with very little safe areas to keep from freezing to death. Plus the fact that enemies have bigger agrro range and follow you further than normal. Funny story I was exploring it and running out of camp fires when I came up to what I thought to be a small town for shelter/supplies but instead was a ghost town (literally) and got killed forthwith. lol That being said with the agrro being so wide I would say there could be less enemies littering the landscape.

[jacksin125]

Well i guess it wont amtter that much when game is relased (since all leves will be unlockable alredy).

I'm gonna stop you right there. Even if you could unlock everything for 10 lvls every month (Which I haven't been able to do, if only because of time constraints), you would be forced to wait two months to level up to 70, when it is probably possible to do it in 2 weeks or even less (I know it's possible to grind from 50 to 60 in 7 or so hours, if you do everything right). If we have to use the wolf altar for lvls 70 - 100, then that would be 5 months, no matter how fast the player could level. I don't know about you, but in most mmos I used to be able to lvl up to max (Including best gear and everything) in a month or less. The only ones that take longer are generally the Asian mmos that are full of almost solely hardcore grinders, and even then they only take so long because it takes forever to get enough xp to level up and to grind for good gear, not because the game tells you to sit on your heels for a month.

[Hood]

Really enjoying the new zone! It's always so refreshing to have somewhere new to go in Gorgon. Last night, myself and Odinar (@necroang) explored a bit and spent some time chatting around campfires. The cold isn't so difficult to get used to, and I think it makes a very cozy environment.

This patch's content makes me happy because there is quite a lot to explore--which is so great! I'm very happy with the size and difficulty of the new zone. I am looking forward to seeing who else pops up in Gazluk over the next few updates, as well as the changes to lab, mants, and pask content. Also, thanks for so many new skills! Definitely seems like you put in an extravagant amount of work on this one. Time to take a break!

[Khaylara]

The new area is probably nice but I find the update frustrating, just like the previous one that turned Kur into deathland. The weather effects are way too extreme even if they're trying to be realistic.
It requires us to carry pretty much 2-3 sets of armor at all times and please, remember that Kur is not a level 60 area and as a level 60 I still find it difficult. The farming is unenjoyable and the cold effects are beyond disruptive to the point where I am more concerned about dropping campfires every 3 minutes than exploring.Speaking of which irl I last way more than 3 minutes in a blizzard.


The price of unlocking new skills is way too high, to skip from 18 k to 90 k is a huge jump (I expected double so about 40 k). The only skill I was able to unlock was mycology to 60. And I have two maxed chars and probably more ways to make cash than newer folks. Right now it feels like the only way to progress is to turn into a true farmer and play 8 to 10 hours a day to achieve anything. And not everyone can/wants to:) Maybe it would've been better to release lvl 70 slowly, starting with the tradeskills and allow us to prepare for the increased combat skills cap. It feels like lately the updates are focus on quantity vs quality. I think I understand why considering many players complete things fast then get bored and stop playing cause they run out of things to do. I'm a fairly consistent player but not someone who puts 8 hrs daily into gaming (filthy casual here).
I will do all that I want eventually but the purpose of playing is to have fun and it does feel like a chore when you have to mindless farm for hours so you can unlock 1 skill. It sucks all the fun out of it imo. I understand the "we don't want you to do everything" stance and it's the right one from the developers but it has to be a better way to slow leveling and push us into specializing that turning the game into a grindfest.

Without putting anyone down (since most are my friends anyway lol), the players who always ask for new content every update tend to pop only to test new stuff then leave again for months. Just my opinion but I have few suggestions that might be useful considering I've played w/o extended breaks for quite a while.

My suggestions (ignore whatever is included into the new GUI).

Inventory-the gear we have equipped must be taken out of inventory and equipped into proper character slots.
The spare sets we need to carry could be packed in a "suitcase" so it doesn't take 9 slots and be loaded directly via load-outs
We absolutely need a way to compact tools, food, potions, arrows and knives (flasks bag, toolbelt/box, quiver).
Whole areas lack storage options, like Amulna or even Eltibule, maybe Sunvale too.
More cotton gins required.
Central viewpoint for storage.
Unified combat skills training system (ie druid, archery,shield skills split between too many random NPCs, some don't have anything to do with these skills and it's confusing).
More teleporting and travel options (It will be a while till we get mounts and it's very annoying to be forced to cross 3-4 zones on foot)
Less extreme weather effects, it has to be a happy medium between the previous build and the current one for Kur at least (I know I'm repeating myself but this will drive lvl 40 ish players into skipping this zone which they already tend to do. It became a zone to be farmed by lvl 60s atm)


If it's too much to read, the general idea is focus less on the quantity when it comes to updates and more on the "quality of life" and indepth developing. I used to be excited about updates like "let's see what crazy stuff he came up with this time" . Now my thoughts go towards "Crap, I have to grind some more so I can afford all this new stuff". In all honesty the thing I enjoyed most from the updates that happen during the last couple of months is the NPCs mobility and dialogues. All I do sometimes is follow the Skeleton Death Shepherd around in Rahu and read his dialogues with Amutasa and Lakrea. And that's way more fun that dropping campfires in Gazluk and dying over and over. It's a shame cause Gazluk seems to be fun and the new caves well designed but it's too much of a hassle going there.

Sorry if this sounds like negative nancy stuff but I really want you to understand where it comes from. This game had a sense of wonder that is hard to find in other MMOs these days. I don't like instant gratification in a game but I also came to dislike grindfest types of games )I played too many of those lol). P:G managed to hit the right spot for a long time but lately the excessive grinding required is driving it further from that "right spot".

Just my opinion, preventing replies telling me how to manage my inventory or cold mitigation. I know the game mechanics and I certainly don't want everything handed on a silver plate. I just want to give some honest feedback to help stop this game from becoming a boring cookiecutter.


edit-the mobs in the new area have rather low loot. The skeletons and ice slimes for example drop exactly the same things as the low level ones and the same amount (1 femur or 1 ice core) and require way more effort to kill.

[kell.shepherd]

The new area is probably nice but I find the update frustrating, just like the previous one that turned Kur into deathland. The weather effects are way too extreme even if they're trying to be realistic.

Less extreme weather effects, it has to be a happy medium between the previous build and the current one for Kur at least (I know I'm repeating myself but this will drive lvl 40 ish players into skipping this zone which they already tend to do. It became a zone to be farmed by lvl 60s atm)

I'm 50/50 Druid/BC and i Hate being in Kur. I pretty much just run through it as fast as I can to get to a portal on my way to Rahu. I've never gone hunting in Kur nor talked to any npc.

[Khaylara]

I'm 50/50 Druid/BC and i Hate being in Kur. I pretty much just run through it as fast as I can to get to a portal on my way to Rahu. I've never gone hunting in Kur nor talked to any npc.


That's why I'm saying that the weather effects are bit much. It's a shame players don't use Kur anymore, it's still the best area for skins, wood, lichen and many other things. Plus NPCs with decent banks, storage and skill training+3 pretty cool dungeons. I think you are missing out on a thing older players experienced and probably others that will join the game will avoid it like you do because of the excessive prep needed. And not implying you don't wanna put the effort in but the preparation involves skills a newer lvl 45 ish player most likely doesn't have.

[Spiritfingers]

Khay, I really like the idea of putting gear into a sort of suitcase for load outs only. It would make it so much easier to carry 3-4 sets of gear.

[alleryn]

Suitcases +1 !

[Spiritfingers]

Something cool for suitcases would be: one set of gear for a 2nd combat combo, 2 sets of gear for weather condition based maps (Kur, Ilmari, etc) and 1 set of gear for dungeons.

[Oxlazr]

Khaylara

I'm not so sure the cold weather thing is strictly terrible as-is, but rather the problem lies in the economy. Hopefully I'm not drawing from nostalgia here, if I could even call it that, but I felt the game was immensely more enjoyable when people helped others for the sake of helping - maybe a guild would get together and overcome a challenge, such as the weather, that the game presents.

Unfortunately now, it's all about gold; getting gold used to be a lot easier, and costs were a lot lower. Draining a vendor would only take an hour or so and you wouldn't be under constant pressure to min/max income because it didn't really matter. Gold was still useful and necessary, but nowhere near the levels it is now. I don't think it's strictly a bad thing - but it swings the game in another direction - one that *might* be better for longevity, but may push a more greed-focused player base, but it's hard to tell.

The plethora of market features definitely adds to this feeling - the stalls, raffle/vendor boxes, work orders, and the player work-orders. I used to think, when I got a new item, of who that item might benefit, and give it to that player - they'd usually compensate me with a bit of gold, but the gold itself was insignificant compared to the gesture.

As for the quantity vs. quality stuff, it's easier to build on a foundation, so I think these large content updates are a good thing - even if they're more of a tourist attraction that brings people back briefly to check 'em out.

I'm still hopeful the pieces will fall in place in the long run.

Also yeah, I think going as far as to split up the inventory into pages - one for tools, one for gear, one for food, and so on, would definitely help.

[Erthiel]

I don't think that cold is as big a problem as it has used to be. First thing I did after the patch is I crafted myself full set of winter gear. It makes a big big difference. The cold in Kur is definitely more manageable. In Gazluk I think the gear holds up quite good as well. I think the biggest problem is that people do not want to part with their already great gear. Carrying 2 sets of gear is not that bad. You can run on the surface to any cave / dungeon you wish and then change into your battle gear. Hunting on the surface is definitely much more difficult.

My biggest complaint is that when using a full set of winter gear you can only have speed mods on rings and amulets. Which makes it very difficult getting anywhere in Gazluk since it's so so big. And the agro range is really big too. You can not get anywhere without basicly drawing 2-3 mobs most of the time behind you. Only way is to try and move on the sides of the mountains which is not that easy. Even exiting caves is dangerous sometimes. Before you look around you'll draw 5 monsters, even sheep, towards you who tear you apart with the quick damage to your hp, before you know what is happening.

I would move the lower tiers of winter gear to Eltibule so lower level players can either craft or buy them before entering the zone. And I vote for slightly decreasing the agro range. Making it easier to move around, kill and possibly even solo few monster here and there on the surface. My AH pets are sometimes unwilling to attack monsters that far away and just turn back mid way or hit once and return. Which is not always my intention to draw all the monster in the vicinity towards me.

But I love the new zone. It's beautiful. I tried hunting in Gazluk and the money you can make from *things* (trade secret :D ) is not bad. But it truly requires some time to collect enough. Let's give it a few more days, maybe a week and then revisit if the initial problems remain.

[cr00cy]

I played a bit in new zone. It looks nice, but unfortunatly is also very unstble (at least for me) Basicly every time i try to enter or exit it my game just closes. Same when i enter/exit caves in Gazluk. i dotn have any crash reports, anything - game just turns off. It sometime happens when i just run around too(and yes i alredy reported it ingame).

About zone itself - its bigh, it looks nice, and i liek large amount of caves. Monster aggro range is imo too big (like others mentioned). Anotehr problem i have(but mayeb its just me) that its hard to navigate in caves. They are lookign very similar, with very few points that coudl serve as landmarks.

Maybe adding option to make marks on our own would be good idea? I tried droppign items form my inventory (meat/pumpkins) to mark corridors i explored, but this works only if im alone - if there are other player(s) its very likely that tehy will pick this stuff.

[Hood]

This is a more detailed review of the new content than my previous post. I am an experienced player with very modest & decent resources and moderate council-making capability. I have more time than many players in which to play, I play during EU evening hours & US afternoon hours, and there is little competition for gathering. I farm occasionally, but certainly not daily or for long periods of time.

Gazluk
- The new zone is large and there is a lot to explore. We needed a new zone, and I'm very happy to have a new place. The other zones are still useful, but excitement for a new place is really nice.
- I've found the cold mechanic to be fairly kind. I do not think standing by a campfire once every few minutes for a few seconds to be tiresome or difficult. I think the materials required to craft these campfires are cheap and easy to get. In addition, the warm-up breaks have resulted in more party chatter. I am very chatty, and have used the opportunity to get to know some people better. A social advantage.
- Winter gear is very easy to craft now and very worth the 2 minutes it takes to gather the small number of mats from storage. The cold mitigation/body heat bonuses are substantial and prolong the time before I need a new fire enough.
- There are so many caves that I see no point to arguing the weather mechanic is too severe. Once you learn the location of a few of the many cave entrances, you can make it from cave to cave if you lack resources for many campfires.
- Emergency campfires are very cheap from NPCs and do the job just as well as Basics.
- Meditation is an essential skill for every player (read about the passive bonuses) and leveling it high enough to get the -20% cold vulnerability or +5 universal mitigation meditations only takes a couple hours of playtime.
- You do not die immediately once you've run out of body heat. You get quite a lot of time before you begin losing health. Perhaps this is based on another factor that new players may not have access to. I eat my words if so.
- Frankly, Citan has done a lot to prepare us for this zone and it's more than enough.

Aggro Range
- I've seen many players in-game claim the "!" mechanic is new. It is not new at all. It seems mobs of similar species have simply learned to "call for help" more loudly. In addition, Citan has mentioned many times that mobs have hearing. If you didn't know about this, search the Old Forums for labyrinth bugs.
- I suspect this change is in line with Citan's recent changes to speed buffs during combat. A new zone is introduced and many players can simply fly over and skip content & landscape. It's important for me to note now that Hood is not a druid and I do not farm WOPs in order to fly over mobs. Perhaps I should do the latter every now and then. Regardless, the aggro changes do allow us to experience more of the content Citan has worked hard on.
- It makes the zones more interactive.
- It creates a more intense atmosphere in the new zone.
- It promotes grouping. This is great during a time when we are waiting on a new group dungeon.

Skill Uncap & New Ability Rank Costs
- If you play this game you need to farm. You need to learn how to make councils and a portion of your in-game time is required for that purpose. No one will give you councils for chatting with people. No one will give you councils to test things in-game. No one will give you councils for simply logging in. It's honest work, clever non-exploitative use of crafting/industry skills, good use of player work orders, a well-stocked vendor stall, or dishonest price-gouging. The time has to be invested in it.
- They've already said the prices aren't coming down.

[Khaylara]

@Vzi I agree as the community grows there's more of an isolation mentality, people group by guilds etc. But also there is no benefit from grouping outside dungeons at this moment, imagine a group of level 40s farming orcs in Kur, what would be the benefit. They would get more XP soloing even if they die a bit, also the loot which is okay for one person would be split to the point that they would make no cash either. So imho at the moment groups are necessary only in some dungeons. And it will be that way till outdoors mobs become more attractive loot wise.

As for weather effects I like how Erthiel started his post, he made himself a winter gear set and it was fine (because he was able to do so). Also good suggestion to place winter gear recipes in Eltibule to allow for preparation.
People seem to forget (and I will remind them again) that when we give feedback we shouldn't just think from a personal perspective. Kur is for lower levels, Gazluk is not only for me or Hood or few others that have the resources but for ALL level 60s that might still be wearing lvl 50 gear dropped from manticores. Not everyone has maxed lw or tc to make themselves gear within 2 days of an update. Citan actually said that once that some players that were level 60 at the time were effectively level 80 (or something of the sort). These are a minority and changes shouldn't be based exclusively on that small percentage of the playerbase.

As for cost of the skills yes, Silvonis said that's not gonna change and that's fine. But we need more and better ways to make cash then. I have almost all the trades maxed on a char. If I do all available WOs (that I can do anyway) I get about 250 k. I could probably get more if I had the materials for everything. That would be enough to unlock 2-3 skills. Don't forget that now we pay for the smallest thing like fishing, mycology etc. That is a char with maxed lw, tc, carpentry, cooking and high level in tailoring and blacksmithing so I'm actually able to get 2-300k. How many of the more recent lvl 60s have so many tradeskills though? And making cash off trash mobs was fine till now but it will take months of mindless zombie farming to make the kind of cash needed. It's causing us to stagnate just for the sake of it and become gold-driven as Vzi said. Because at this point I can't afford putting metal slabs into tools to give away or sell at vendor value to help the community. I can hardly afford buying curatives or medikits to help others.

As long as gaining new skills and progressing will be depending on gold we will become more and more greedy not because we're bad people but because the game goes in that direction. Less for the casual player, more for the gold farmer. And that was the general idea of my initial post. Vzi put it much better than I did.


PS Sorry Naku, I might have taken your cave markers thinking they're trash

[jackybah]

I want to say that I agree with Khaylara's comments about Kur being inaccessible (as in not being able to survive there) for lower geared /lower level players.

Currently I have 3 combat skill at 60-plus; I have Endurance at 60-plus. (This to indicate that yea I have been playing for quite a number of hours).
But I still feel that the game ends for me in Eltibule and Sun Vale.

In the Kur the combo of the weather-effect and the slightly higher level mobs get me every time. And having to travel the entire map again from the Eltibule entrance to the NorthWest-village (Ukorga and Laura Neth) is dishearthening.
In Ilmari and Rahu the mobs are just far to tough. I only travel through those area's either to join in a Mants group or to do a half-death-run to the NPC's

The suggestion to have LW recipes available in Eltibule, to be able to grind/craft some Winter gear, seems like a nice idea. (PLease also consider introducing a little more reliable way to get Wool. Maybe some higher level sheeps in either Eltibule or Sun Vale, that drop Wool when skinned ?)

Kind regards

Jacky

[Spiritfingers]

I want to say that I agree with Khaylara's comments about Kur being inaccessible (as in not being able to survive there) for lower geared /lower level players.

Currently I have 3 combat skill at 60-plus; I have Endurance at 60-plus. (This to indicate that yea I have been playing for quite a number of hours).
But I still feel that the game ends for me in Eltibule and Sun Vale.

In the Kur the combo of the weather-effect and the slightly higher level mobs get me every time. And having to travel the entire map again from the Eltibule entrance to the NorthWest-village (Ukorga and Laura Neth) is dishearthening.
In Ilmari and Rahu the mobs are just far to tough. I only travel through those area's either to join in a Mants group or to do a half-death-run to the NPC's

The suggestion to have LW recipes available in Eltibule, to be able to grind/craft some Winter gear, seems like a nice idea. (PLease also consider introducing a little more reliable way to get Wool. Maybe some higher level sheeps in either Eltibule or Sun Vale, that drop Wool when skinned ?)

Kind regards

Jacky

I have gotten wool a lot from mobs. Iv'e only done 4 things since the update - lab, mants, pask and farm endurance in rahu. I think I've gotten wool drops form lab mobs. I've never farmed Kur before. I only used the map for collecting mats and wolf cave. I think I've done Yetis once or twice. I don't plan on doing too much in Kur or the new map if it means I have to deal with weather this much. I have too many other things to occupy my time. I haven't even been to the new map yet and don't plan on going there for a few months at the earliest. In short, I spend 95% of my solo time in Rahu, Elt, Vale, etc...There is still plenty of things for me to do on those maps so I don't feel any pressure to deal with weather maps.

[Extractum11]

The price of unlocking new skills is way too high, to skip from 18 k to 90 k is a huge jump (I expected double so about 40 k)....Right now it feels like the only way to progress is to turn into a true farmer and play 8 to 10 hours a day to achieve anything...but the purpose of playing is to have fun and it does feel like a chore when you have to mindless farm for hours so you can unlock 1 skill. It sucks all the fun out of it imo. I understand the "we don't want you to do everything" stance and it's the right one from the developers but it has to be a better way to slow leveling and push us into specializing that turning the game into a grindfest.

The prices to unlock + train level 70 skills is roughly 3 times what it was for level 60. Even if the vision is to make each level set take twice as long to get as the one before it (which seems unsustainable for level 80, 90, and 100), player-moneymaking-ability should have gone up by 1.5x. I'm pretty sure the average level 60 player doesn't make 1.5x what they did at 50, and if they do, it'd be through maxing various crafting skills.

I also believe that level 70 is too early to be forcing specialization. Because of the way mods work, it's too early to tell what a skill will play like at max rank because the relative power of stuff changes too much. At level 60, Pack Attack with all mods deals 627/792/957 (based on Pack Attack stacks) and Pouncing Rake deals 845. At level 70, Pack Attack deals 1183/1383/1583 and Pouncing Rake deals 1128. Why didn't Pouncing Rake's power scale as much as Pack Attack did? It's because Pack Attack got another rank on the way to 70, and Rake didn't. I am NOT trying to say that you should give Pouncing Rake another rank, or that you should buff its mods. Both abilities have their place, and you can find 5-10 examples like this in any skillset (or even skill combinations). I'm trying to illustrate that there are real, significant changes to a skill as you level up, and that it's not always obvious whether or not you'll enjoy a skill at level 100 based on your experiences at level 50.

What if I play Mentalism/Psychology and then realize I need more CC, or more damage, or more whatever to do level 100 content? What if I pick Knife Fighting instead of Archery because I love dots, then get to the level 80 zone and find that there are new Combat Wisdom options, or some new high-level-only treasure effect, or whatever? I would have preferred to play Archery, if only I'd known that the DoT-playstyle was going to be possible later.

I get that people will usually find a way to make it work, and that people are usually happier with choices that have long-lasting impacts, but asking them to make these uninformed decisions at level 70 seems like too much, too early.

I know that this is sort of odd criticism for me to make. Besides the full moon, my main skill has been Fire Magic for literally 2 years straight, and I'd look into the skill lines up to level 100 if I was thinking of playing something. But I doubt you're supposed to play the game like that, and I love the mod diversity and classless feel that the game currently has.

There's also the issue of increased specialization leading to a lower diversity of classes. The ideal would be an even distribution of most skills at max rank, but: balancing typically happens to max level skills, and these changes ripple down to the beginning stages. Even if every skill is perfectly equal at level 100, they won't be equal at level 60-70, or whenever players start to pick and choose what skills they want to specialize in. So the skill distribution will tend towards whatever skill was easiest at X level. You can kind of already see this with Ice Magic...because it's obtained late in the game and because the research mats are difficult for non-maxed players to get, it's become rare. Even though it's not really in a bad spot at all at max level.




Inventory-the gear we have equipped must be taken out of inventory and equipped into proper character slots.

I've seen the devs respond to this before with "we've already added extra inventory slots to compensate for equipment," but new players don't know that. Pleasepleaseplease have a different spot for showing equipped items in the new GUI, even if you remove inventory slots for it.


In all honesty the thing I enjoyed most from the updates that happen during the last couple of months is the NPCs mobility and dialogues...Sorry if this sounds like negative nancy stuff but I really want you to understand where it comes from. This game had a sense of wonder that is hard to find in other MMOs these days. I don't like instant gratification in a game but I also came to dislike grindfest types of games )I played too many of those lol). P:G managed to hit the right spot for a long time but lately the excessive grinding required is driving it further from that "right spot".

Ditto for me. I'm still exploring the new dungeons, but so far my favorite bit of the patch is new player-lore and the volume on Vol and Arisetsu <3



Aggro Range
- I suspect this change is in line with Citan's recent changes to speed buffs during combat. A new zone is introduced and many players can simply fly over and skip content & landscape. It's important for me to note now that Hood is not a druid and I do not farm WOPs in order to fly over mobs.

The call for help range isn't a big deal (although I'm pretty sure it increased on some mobs), the default aggro range is much more annoying to me. Thankfully it looks like it was only extended in the open world, dungeons seem the same.

I can't understand what the point is. It's not a significant nerf (at all) to druids, you just fly a few meters higher. Since the terrain is mountainous, it was already optimal anyway to fly >40 meters above the ground. It's not really a nerf to players who use single-loadout speed gear, they just have to get used to going a little bit farther around ranged mobs. It's ONLY a nerf to multi-loadout speed gear because it takes slightly longer to get out of "pseudocombat" and switch loadouts. Not really significant here either, more of a nuisance. It's probably dropped my run speed by 5%, but increased annoyance with the combat system (that I already strongly disliked) by like 50%.

If this WASN'T a specific nerf to OOC movement and instead a general thing, then it's an objectively huge change and IMO deserved at least a little blurb in the patch notes.


Regardless, the aggro changes do allow us to experience more of the content Citan has worked hard on.

Well, I want to play the interesting stuff. I want to play Orc City and Ghost Town. I want to play all the new dungeons. I want to talk to the funny NPCs, I want to run around collecting yellow crystals. What I DON'T want to do is fight the boring, uninspired mass of random mobs in Gazluk.

It sounds harsh, and I'm sorry for that, and I'm sorry for not really having any solutions. Rahu suffers from the same problem. I know that it's there as a placeholder for future development, but it's still annoying. I prefer to play the "real" content, the stuff that (I'm assuming) 90% of the effort went into.

If the aggro range was specifically intended to make people fight those mobs more, please reconsider. If it wasn't for that, please consider the unintended effects it has in other zones.

[Spiritfingers]

And then you have people like me. I started playing this game in November or 2014. I'm not even at a level where I can specialize in 2 maybe 3 max combat skills. I have to level the associated skills to max first just to get the most of out of lvl 60 usage. For example, my hammer is lvl 60 but buckling artistry is like 22. To level buckle artistry i need to be able to craft different types of dyes which means being able to grow different types of flowers.

I guess what I'm saying is this patch hasn't hit me as hard as others because I can't even specialize yet. The fact that hammer and shield lvl 70 unlocks are way off in the future for me. In the end I get to enjoy the lvl 60 and lower content. My main issue is going to be that the players I'm accustomed to seeing in said content will leave me in the dust as they are off working on lvl 70 content. I will have to patiently wait on all the new players to get to lvl 60.

[Tagamogi]

On first, limited, exploration, I really like the new zone - it's very pretty and I like the idea of moving from one warm spot to the next to continue exploring. Finding that big wooden *warm* tower just when i needed it was neat. I'm also very happy the zone has a map already - I found it pretty difficult to navigate in other pre-map zones.

It seems that Gazluk might have been created with the expectation of mounts, which of course we don't have yet. I was able to compensate for my +1 cold mitigation and total lack of campfires quite well by using mutated toes + haste concoction + take the lead. My goal though was just trying to find the battle chemistry trainer and then go back to warmer zones until I level up more. Exploring carefully on a slower-moving character could be difficult.

One thing I didn't like in Gazluk is that mobs seemed to camp cave exits at times - I'd walk out and be right in combat. It would be nice if they pathed a little further away, so you can at least get your bearings first when you come out.

Kur: What I'd like is to have the outpost next to the zone-in, or at least a bit more convenient to reach. The way the zone currently is set up just doesn't make much sense to me: I take a path from Eltibule, come out on an ice-covered, featureless glacier with bears, and then start running northwest across the snow because ... oh, yes, because the Wiki tells me there's stuff there. Why is there stuff there? I've no idea. There is a hangout with Ukorga to shovel snow off the road, and every time I do it, I wonder *what* road?
If Ukorga's inn was nearer the zone-in and something road-like, it would both make more sense and allow new players to get a foothold in Kur. They can tell it's a cold zone and they might want protection if they venture further away from that nice warm inn, and conveniently there's Ukorga right there selling recipes. The suggestion to have the winter recipes in Eltibule would of course also work, and not require any zone re-work. But then I still wouldn't know why there's an inn without a road...

I think it would also make more sense to not lose body heat in combat, or lose it much more slowly. I just finished killing three wolves, and am frantically trying to hold two more at bay and I die of ... exposure to freezing temperatures? I feel pretty hot with those wolves breathing down my neck, thank you for asking. ;) It also seems the exploding fire sheep could warm me up a bit.

I never spent much time in Kur, even before the changes to the way the cold worked. With the latest patch, I'm actually pretty excited about seeing whether I can craft a set of gear to withstand the cold, and figure out the camp fires, and get my first aid up to learn that frostbite treatment. I'm a slow player though, and it will be some time before I have constructive feedback on that. For now, it just looks pretty interesting.

And on a random, unrelated note, I'm really thrilled to be able to finally level battle chemistry! I like leveling, so when I'd maxed out battle chemistry a few months ago, I switched to another skill set - I didn't realize how much I'd missed it until I started playing with it again now.

[Tagamogi]

Whole areas lack storage options, like Amulna or even Eltibule, maybe Sunvale too.

I can't speak for Amulna, but Eltibule has Sie Antry's spare room and the council storage machine in Hogan's Keep. Sun Vale has storage from both Agrashab and Sylvia.

I do agree with you that storage in general is rough to manage, but we'll see what happens with the new UI.



Unified combat skills training system (ie druid, archery,shield skills split between too many random NPCs, some don't have anything to do with these skills and it's confusing).

I actually like it that skills are split between different NPCs - it makes exploration more rewarding, and gives me a reason to raise favor with all those fun NPCs. The flip side to that is that I sometimes get frustrated when I find lots of gear with a mod for a particular skill, and I have no idea where to get that skill.

Azalak is currently a pretty scary multi-tasking necro druid archer alchemist, but I think the intent is that some of those skills will get moved to more appropriate NPCs eventually.

What I don't like is raising favor with NPCs that aren't completely written yet. I know it's one of the fun features of alpha, but I don't like just tossing random stuff at NPCs until they'll train me. I like to have conversations with them and enjoy the increased favor dialogs, and feel like I'm getting to know them. So, I think I actually prefer that existing, completed NPCs temporarily teach some abilities that don't really make sense for them.



More teleporting and travel options (It will be a while till we get mounts and it's very annoying to be forced to cross 3-4 zones on foot)

That would be nice. I'm currently pretty reluctant to play my alts because they are so *slow* without battle chemistry and it takes me forever to get them anywhere.

[Spiritfingers]

Its funny that some of the storage is so far out of the way that you have to make up reasons why you'd store anything there. Vale is that for me. I can only imagine Vale being important if you are an animal. I don't even know if the hammer npc will talk to an animal. I so hope they add the ability to draw from storage anywhere in the world.

[Khaylara]

Tagamogi I was thinking precisely of Azalak, the druid abilities could've been added on the druid trainer in Rahu. Necro skills got moved from Azalak at Jumjab and instead of necromancer and alchemist he becomes a bug of the renaissance, skilled in everything:) Few other skills are quite widely spread, most new people have no idea Flia even trains unarmed, etc

[punk7712]

I like the new zone, but I agree with many others..... The cold mechanics are just too extreme at the moment. It has created situation similar to magic find gear you see in a lot of Diablo clones. You are sort of forcing people into suboptimal gear, and that grates on a lot of people. There are a few folks that get into crafting sets of winter gear, but a lot of folks are put off and skip huge chunks of content. I think if body heat drained at a rate closer to what you see with Hydration in Illmari it would be a lot more palatable. It still requires some thought, but you aren't dad dicking people out of the content you worked so hard to create.

[Tagamogi]

I was thinking precisely of Azalak, the druid abilities could've been added on the druid trainer in Rahu.
That would not have been good for low-level druids. I have a level 35 druid who is still feeling pretty scared of Sun Vale - she is not visiting Rahu anytime soon. Since there is low-level gear with mods for the skills that Azalak trains, it makes sense to have the skills available in a lower-level zone. If, perhaps, not on Azalak. :) But I guess he got a druid hat as part of his hat collection. ( I initially had no idea Azalak was training druid skills, must have missed it in the patch notes. When I found gear with interesting new mods on my druid, I looked all over Sun Vale, deeply convinced there must be a druid there that would train me in those missing skills. I didn't figure out the druid I was looking for was Azalak until weeks later...)

Flia for unarmed works fine for me since she is at least in the starter zone, if not all that easy to find. I'm a bit unconvinced on having sword and shield skills require friendship with a staff/unarmed trainer first though (Hogan).

[srand]

The feedback in this thread is wonderful - keep it coming! (Although in this thread specifically, focusing on Gazluk is more useful for us than focusing on Kur ... but I understand the connection.) I also wanted to respond to a couple of things briefly. (Edit: Or not so briefly.)




One thing I noticed but didn't see in the notes is mob detection range has increased significantly. Not so critical for melee mobs but ranged mobs missiles will track and hit putting you into combat.

It wasn't in the patch notes because it wasn't exactly intended. On the other hand, it's also not exactly a bug. Let me explain. :)

There was a bug in the outdoor mob detection range that we didn't know about for a long time. It got fixed more or less as a side-effect of another fix, and without getting on my radar for patch notes. But because a lot of the content was tweaked for the previous (bugged) range, a lot of content was unintentionally affected by the range fix. Some of it is broken entirely. (Deer mobs, I am looking at you!) Some of it is much harder than intended. Some of it works out pretty well and will probably be left that way. But we're going to have to do a pass back through the bad areas and fix things up again.




(PLease also consider introducing a little more reliable way to get Wool. Maybe some higher level sheeps in either Eltibule or Sun Vale, that drop Wool when skinned ?)

Perhaps not exactly what you meant, but this is from the patch notes: "Mountain Sheep (but not low-level 'Valley Sheep') now always drop at least 1 wool, and can drop up to 3. In addition, their 'bonus skin' (when skinning their corpses) is also wool."




I played a bit in new zone. It looks nice, but unfortunatly is also very unstble (at least for me) Basicly every time i try to enter or exit it my game just closes. Same when i enter/exit caves in Gazluk. i dotn have any crash reports, anything - game just turns off. It sometime happens when i just run around too(and yes i alredy reported it ingame).

<nod> Gazluk looks like it causes some memory use problems for the client. We have gotten a number of crash reports, and the in-game reports help us match up times and locations. We're investigating! In the meantime, just as a temporary work-around, you may have better luck if you set your graphics quality way down in Gazluk.





If it's too much to read, the general idea is focus less on the quantity when it comes to updates and more on the "quality of life" and indepth developing. I used to be excited about updates like "let's see what crazy stuff he came up with this time" . Now my thoughts go towards "Crap, I have to grind some more so I can afford all this new stuff".

Note that I've snipped most of Khaylara's detailed suggestions and feedback and just grabbed the summary sentence, but I'm not intending to ignore any of the specifics, just going straight to the summary. (And I did read it all!)

I understand exactly what you mean, Khaylara - quantity vs. quality is a very familiar trade-off for live game teams (that is, teams the expand the game after release). Do you concentrate on a lot of expanded content, whether that is in the form of expansion packs or monthly updates? Or do you fix the long-standing bugs, add a more modern chat system, maybe finally give the pointless cave in the mid-level zone some sort of actual purpose? Where exactly the trade-off happens depends a lot on the game, the players, and the dev team - but it is always a balancing act.

But that's post-release. Where we are right now, in alpha, we still need to pin down a lot of the tech and the mechanics. We need to do the crazy stuff now. We are doing quite a bit for quality of life as we go - although admittedly at this point, a lot of it is less 'quality of life' and more 'why the hell isn't that basic feature there yet?', but still. Overall the current balance for us swings towards ... well, not quantity over quality, but bones over quality.

Take Gazluk, for example. Even though Gazluk is a big shiny new zone, it serves an additional purpose: Gazluk contains tests of something like five new tech mechanics. Some of these are low-level enough (in the code sense) that you won't ever see them. Some are smaller versions of something that's planned to be a larger deal later. (Pennoc filled that purpose, for example.)

Even something like skill prices has a testing purpose: We aren't punishing you or trying to slow you down, we're seeing how the math that looks good on paper actually falls out when it meets real players. (Insert quote about battle plans here.) Between your feedback and some basic metrics, we can improve the whole process for the next skill cap raise. Perhaps the best part of this stage of development is that, if something doesn't work, we can change it.

I think part of the problem we are running into is that we have drawn out the alpha so long that some of our long-term alpha players are expecting more from us. That is completely understandable - and, honestly, incredibly flattering. And thankfully something that will improve as we move into beta and beyond and get a little more slack in our balancing tightrope. (Err .. wait - is slack good or bad on a tightrope? Well, hopefully you know what I mean.)

[kell.shepherd]

I'm getting used to the aggro range but yeah.. DEER!!!! I've started leveling knife/mentalism which means starting over in the lowbie areas and sheeeeeeeeit deer will start running away if you just start to look at them let alone start the chase.

[Khaylara]

srand - I am aware it's not a form of punishment (although both Citan and Silvonis seem to have a solid sadistic streak which I find incredibly funny so...debatable if it's intended as punishment or not lol).

My personal reasoning when I wrote that novel


-the game seems to be slowly but surely shifting focus from exploration to the economy (a novel to be written about the game market at a later date tehe)

-at this particular time I personally understand why you release so much content, you would wanna put everything out, hit beta and focus on polishing it for about a year till the actual launch (that's my guess, I might be wrong)

-what effects I think this massive update had on the playerbase (and that's where I'm being negative nancy and correct me if I'm wrong) from what I observed

1. The older players who had the resources and took the update as is, spent few mill and enjoy it. I believe they are not that many though

2. The older players who pop after updates and usually take long breaks inbetween after finishing the content in a week or two (they'll always be around, but obviously you can't put out weekly updates to appeal this category)

3. Active less farming inclined players who are put off by the need to spend their fun game time on tedious farming so they can experience the new content (myself included here)
4. The wave of new players that we have now coming from AC and AC2. I never played those but I understand that they were quirky, fun and involving. As sad as it is for them losing their favorite game, for PG it could be a huge opportunity. Hence my novel about the quality of life stuff, we want these people to stay not to be put off by things like inventory or storage or plain lack of gold for skills. And from this point of view, hitting the new wave of players with a huge update (and the bugs that come with it) and the promise of "farm till you drop if you want to achieve anything" seems like the wrong move.

The balance you talked about is hard to achieve, yes, it's impossible to please everyone but we need the kind of game that attracted us in the first place. I took the subtle hint about expecting too much from the dev team:P I can only imagine how much work went into this game especially during the last year and tbh I don't even know how you can even keep the server running at this point and by no means any of us underestimates that. But changing the game too much does hurt the playerbase and it might thin it. So someone has to be blunt about the negatives too.:D


PS sorry if my train of thought doesn't translate very well in writing

On the actual topic I maintain the suggestions about Gazluk weather effects and I'd add some storage options as next move:) Also this update is probably a good learning curve for the lvl 80-100 unlocks (for both the players and the developers) so whatever issues pop now and are solved will make the next updates much smoother. I wanted to add that to my already long post.