Knife Fighter (lv. 30) Feedback

[beemerwt]

So far I have been using the Knife because in all MMOs I've ever played, I've loved to be a stealth-like class that uses quick weapons. It has been pretty fun because I very much enjoy the effects on the Knife; however, there are a lot of issues when it comes to the "surprise attacks."

Side note: For the remainder of this thread I will be using dagger and knife indistinguishably.

My initial impression was that a lot of people didn't use knives because they were under-powered. This is true. The base damage on the knives is very low. This prevents a lot of players from using the item, as they might attempt to start using it later in the game only to be disappointed and switch back to whatever they were using. I, on the other hand, looked up the guide on how to obtain knife fighting immediately when I figured out there were daggers in the game, upon meeting Joeh in Serbule. I am determined to use a knife because I believe they have potential, even though I have no information to back this claim.

While my opinions on PvP in this game are very low at the moment, the one thing I can say for sure is that it will be the best weapon if PvP becomes a staple of the game. I have already fought max-level Fire mages with my dagger and was rekt, but I managed to kill some of them despite being level 20 Knife Fighting at the time. That's amazing power. Keep in mind, though, that my dagger was paired with a special necklace and gloves that make it so my damage is increased after using my main ability, the basic attack, and my slice ignores armor. This is what causes such high health damage without having to worry about armor. The only issue is that getting the proc on the basic attack to increase the damage is very rare when you can't even hit the targets because their armor is so "thick." That being said, the main purpose of this game is PvE, which is kind of disappointing considering how many spots get camped by other players and how open-world this game is, because I can see PvP being super enjoyable when you decide to go somewhere to grind and you meet someone there.

The dagger for PvE is a bit lackluster. I see a lot of people around my level who are doing massive damage to mobs because they are using Fire magic or swords. This is mainly because a lot more people use fire magic and swords, so their armor is easy to obtain from random shops. I'd genuinely say that daggers are the least used weapon in this game, even compared to Bard. This is evident by the amount of things being sold everywhere that aren't for daggers. So I have decided that I would craft my own from hereon. This will allow me the ability to get the best kind of gear, and I'll write 2 other threads on my opinions at level 50 and 70, depending on if my opinion of the Knife changes enough by then--especially with the ability to craft my own.

When fighting mobs, I always wear the gloves and necklace that allow my basic attack to generate stacks of "Crit 4." Typically, I'll generate 2 or 3 before I use an ability "without the word 'CUT.'" This stacks very nicely and allows for some big numbers to come out. The necklace then adding the armor pierce makes my slice to some 100 damage directly to their health. This is not a lot, as I have said before, but this combo is repeatable rather quickly. My secondary is also Unarmed, so when I'm waiting for my cooldowns I'll kick them away from me. I believe, though, that Unarmed needs CC in the form of other abilities such as "Headbutt," instead of only allowing truly unarmed abilities to CC. Some simple CC would allow me to backstab the enemy and deal a lot more damage or even get off a cut. A lot of the bonuses on gear involve those two abilities, but they are damn near impossible to ever get off.

I'll sum it all up now. I've been using daggers for about 30 levels now, and they have noticeable bonuses and noticeable detriments. If you want a weapon that does a lot of damage, don't use a dagger. If you want a weapon that is guaranteed to be good in the future for PvP, then choose knife. Leveling it up will be hard, so you'll also want to learn how to craft them, too.

[Taire]

Thanks for sharing your findings beemerwt. I too prefer stealthy rogue classes and hadn't even come across information on knife skills or weapons in game yet. Though it's hard to level up, I can't help but want to use knives for my main character after release day.

You mention the possibilities of higher level knife users down the road, but do you have any tips for just getting started with them? Thanks again.

[Tagamogi]

Great to see some interest in knife fighting!

Knife is going to be the starting skill for the upcoming fairy race, so once that happens, there will probably a few changes to the skill, or at least to the trainer locations. For now, all 1-50 abilities can be learned from two trainers in Serbule (neither of the trainers is in the town itself but you should encounter them eventually when wandering around to the southeast). The fairy who unlocks the skill will also give you a starter dagger.

Once you learn knife fighting, the next big question is which other combat skill you want to use with it. For now, knife is a main hand weapon which means that skills requiring a different main hand weapon (e.g. staff, sword) cannot be used at the same time. However, there are plenty of skills left that either require no special equipment or use gear that can be equipped in a different slot: psychology, mentalism, animal handling, necromancy, archery, shield, battle chemistry. Bard is also possible but having a knife in the main hand will disable some of the main bard abilities. Likewise, I believe a knife will disable some of the unarmed abilities, although it's been a while since I've done anything with unarmed and since beemerwt is happily playing that, there doesn't seem to be a problem with that combination.

Obviously, skills will change and be added as the game progresses, but I was listing the current skills just to give you an idea that a knife fighter/necromancer probably has a pretty different play style than a knife fighter/archer. Back to knife itself:

Knife has a few abilities that do the most damage when your target's focus isn't on you. If you enjoy grouping and have another player tanking for you, you should be able to put out quite a bit of damage with backstab. If you are a solo player, you can try using necromancy or animal handling to have your pet tank for you, so you can backstab. I'm not quite sure if that is going to be an enjoyable combo or not - I personally think pets feel a bit squishy right now and that the pet ai could use an overhaul but it's possible I'm too picky.

Also, if your target is mezzed, they should no longer be focused on you, even if you were the only person who has been attacking them. So, you could use either psychology or archery to first mez your target and then backstab it. I think that's it - I'm generally not fond of abilities that require a special setup first, so I haven't been paying as much attention to backstab as I possibly should.

There are no stealth abilities associated with knife, so the traditional sneak up and start the fight with backstab is not an option.

Knife also has three throwing knife abilities. You can use blacksmithing or ice conjuration to make the throwing knives, try to buy the knives from other players, or you can ignore these abilities entirely. I was taking another look at these abilities yesterday and they are actually very nice and worth using. It's just that my blacksmithing level is always lagging behind my knife fighting, so it's been easier for me to not use throwing abilities. Fortunately, knife has plenty of other abilities, so skipping them has not been a hardship at all.

If you want to give yourself a general damage boost, you can learn calligraphy. This sounds a bit counter-intuitive since calligraphy is primarily a sword support skill but it has a few recipes that increase either slashing or piercing damage by a percentage amount.

I've been playing knife/battle chemistry. I'm a mage at heart, so I've been using battle chemistry to pump up out the aoe, and then stacking knife's self heal mods and special tricks to keep myself alive while dealing even more damage. I generally do not enjoy rogues or stealth, so I've been really surprised to love knife as much as I do. ( Battle chemistry is not an option for beginning players since it requires 50 alchemy to learn. Battle chemistry's golem is actually pretty tanky, so it may be possible to use it as a tank for backstab, too.)

Oh, and I do not consider knife to be underpowered at all. It's not the max dps skill but it can put out some very nice damage and it adds survivability that I feel is lacking in the dps-focused skills. I've been very happily soloing with it everywhere but Gazluk Keep. I just got done taking a longish break from knife/bc to level some other skills with a friend, and I'm really looking forward to switching back this weekend and finding out how my favorite skills work out when duoing.

"Best" skills tend to be fairly subjective - it really depends on what you are trying to do and whether you enjoy playing the skill. I wonder sometimes whether skills like knife or bard are disliked just because they are relatively new to the game, so players try them out briefly when they are released and decide they are not as cool as their existing level 70 skills that they've spent months maximizing and getting the best possible item mods for.

[Taire]

Thank you so much Tagamogi! I was actually hoping Knife/Necromancy was an option but the general description of the necromancer staff made me think it was incompatible. That sounds like what I'd be most interested in trying out first. Though I agree the pets do sound kind of finicky from reports I've read around here so far. I'll try it out too and see what I find. Archery/Knife may be another style I'd like too if they work well together rather than in opposition--being ranged and melee.

Thanks again for all of this information, it is loaded with helpful tips and even more than I expected. I'll gather some first impressions this weekend and see how it goes.

[Tagamogi]

Necromancy requires a focus gem which can be found in several different slots. The initial necromancy staff is not compatible with knife since it's a main hand staff, but I've also seen necromancy gems in head, chest, neck and offhand slot items, all of which would work just fine. Of course, the trick is finding those items. :) They aren't particularly rare but you may need to look around a bit until you find something that will work for you.

In my limited experience with necromancy, I thought the necromancy pets were a bit nicer than the animal handling pets, just because they are simpler to raise when they die. ;) Plus necromancy has other skills that you can use if your pet isn't working out.

I'm not sure about mixing archery and knife either. It definitely has some interesting possibilities - archery could mez to enhance knife's backstab damage and knife could use poisoner's cut to enhance archery's poison arrow. I just don't know if switching from melee to range and back all the time would feel too weird.

Definitely post how things turn out for you - I hope you'll find a skill combo you'll enjoy!


( Edit: I should possibly add that there is no reason you have to use backstab as a knife fighter. It's definitely a nice high damage ability for knife that can be fun to set up for, but you can also survive just fine without using it.)

( Edit 2: Come to think of, I've also seen a couple knives with necromancy gems, so those would definitely work too for a knife/necro build)

[Crissa]

Knife archery seems like a thing that could happen. It's not like archery has control over range in this game! And stabbing with an arrow is a thing...

[Madmatx]

Like Crissa said you can use archery in melee range, I do it all the time.

Legolas has no issue stabbing Orcs through the eye with an arrow and then shooting more at a distance of 2 feet away.

[Karamasha]

I love knife Knife/Mentalism and Knife/Animal Handling LV.48, knife for life!

[Faeothin]

Can anyone confirm from their experience if mezzing a target mechanically works for allowing the knife user to go for a backstab?

[Karamasha]

Can anyone confirm from their experience if mezzing a target mechanically works for allowing the knife user to go for a backstab?

I've only been able to Backstab when the enemy has been targeting something Else like my pet.

[Throwback]

Yeah stuns & mezzes don't seem to allow backstabs. It seems like a missed opportunity for synergy tbh :(

[Tagamogi]

Yeah stuns & mezzes don't seem to allow backstabs. It seems like a missed opportunity for synergy tbh :(

According to last year's patch notes, mez is supposed to work: http://wiki.projectgorgon.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-02-07 .

If you can confirm that it isn't, I'd bug that. I tried figuring out whether it's working or not last night, but the message that warns me when my backstab wasn't effective seems to have gone missing and I'm unable to read the floaty text fast enough to check whether mez worked based on the damage numbers.

[Trufax]

According to last year's patch notes, mez is supposed to work: http://wiki.projectgorgon.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-02-07 .

If you can confirm that it isn't, I'd bug that. I tried figuring out whether it's working or not last night, but the message that warns me when my backstab wasn't effective seems to have gone missing and I'm unable to read the floaty text fast enough to check whether mez worked based on the damage numbers.
Citan

Tested this last night with Tell me about your mother and gut. Confirmed it did not work. Warning text popped up and no Damage over time applied. I also tested Cause Terror with similar results. Tonight I will level up shield and test Stunning Bash.

In order to create more of an opportunistic feel to the Knife Fighting abilities such as Gut, Backstab and Surprise throw could also be used when the victim is in a Vulnerable state. Vulnerability to me imparts of feeling of defenselessness or recklessness that invites retaliation.

On top of exploiting enemies when they are in a vulnerable state, punishing enemies when they make an over reach is a hallmark of clever combatants. Synergizing with their defensive capabilities such as Blur Cut, when a knife fighter successfully evades an attack this could open up an opportunity to Gut/Backstab/Surprise Throw.

Additionally I love where Knife Fighting is going with its survivability aspects IE increased evasion and such. However I feel the current implementation of Surge Cut and Fending Blade feel out of place. In their current iteration they feel more like Sword abilities. In an effort to further push the identity of Knife Fighting and Sword abilities apart. These could use a closer look.

The rage reducing abilities of Swords are well implemented in their current form as each knick and well timed slash can whittle enemies to shreds. For knife fighters however I feel the technique they strive for is to get into their opponents head and use their rage against them. Creating attacks of opportunities when the opponent is distracted or makes a misstep.

Instead of reducing the opponents rage as the current iteration of Fending Blade does now, perhaps it could impart a high temporary evasion modifier and/or completely remove the focus clause that is required to Gut/Backstab to its fullest effect. I believe an implementation change like this would give the knife fighter a survivability tool like Surge Cut and fulfill a skillset defining aspect of the Knife Fighter mythos.