Dev Blog: How Will the Upcoming Steam Integration Work?

[Citan]

How Will Steam Integration Work?
In about a week we'll submit Project: Gorgon for final approval to Steam and it should be for sale as a Steam Early Access game in about two weeks. So what exactly will this mean for you?


End of Alpha
Currently, the game is in alpha. Alpha is the earliest development stage, where we prototype game ideas, iterate on the core design, and make sure we're on a solid technical footing.

When we launch on Steam Early Access, alpha development officially ends and beta development begins. This is just an internal milestone indicating that we'll be focusing more on fleshing out, optimizing, balancing, and extending the game. We'll continue to roll out game updates every couple of weeks, as always.

The game has been completely free to play during alpha. During beta, you will need to play the game through Steam, meaning you need to own a Steam license for the game.


Playing on Steam
The only immediate change for players is that you'll need to play the game through Steam.

If you pre-purchased the game, we'll email your Steam key(s) to you after the game is live on Steam. Our email will include instructions on how to redeem your Steam key, although it's very simple: you install Steam and then you choose a menu option to redeem the key. Then you download the game through Steam and play.

If you haven't pre-purchased the game, you obviously won't be emailed a Steam key. Just buy the game in the Steam store and play!


Two-Week Transition Period
For about two weeks after the game is available on Steam, you'll still be able to log in with the current alpha launcher, using your alpha username and password just like you do today. This short grace period is important because it will take a few days to email out all the pre-ordered Steam keys, and to deal with any hiccups or problems.

Once this transition period is over, though, you'll only be able to play through Steam. (Meaning you will have to buy the game!)

If you can't buy the game right now, or don't want to buy it until it's officially launched, don't worry about your existing characters: they'll still be here when you finally purchase the game.


Connecting Your Steam Account with Your Alpha Account
When you run the game through Steam for the first time, the game will ask you if you have an alpha account. (If you've played the game before, you do! That's your current game account.) You'll then be prompted to enter your alpha account name and password, the same ones you use to login to the game today. Your Steam account will then be connected to your alpha account, so you can access your existing characters through Steam.

After that, you won't need to enter your alpha username and password anymore. Whenever you start the game from Steam, you'll be automatically logged in.


Getting Your Pre-Ordered Benefits
We aren't yet rolling out any of the pre-order benefits (such as horses, titles, special items, or VIP features). Some of those features are still a long way off, while others will be coming soon. But before we roll out anything, we want to make sure we've got your data right.

If you backed us through Kickstarter or Indiegogo, you'll be able to see a message in-game showing which package you bought. That way, if there are any problems or errors, you can let us know early so we can address them.

If you bought a package through the Gorgon Shop, we'll email you asking for your alpha account name and other info needed to fulfill your package. After we assign that info to your account, you'll see a message in-game confirming that you've got the right package.

https://i.imgur.com/osyoU0Z.png
When your account's pre-order package is set up, you'll see a message on the Settings screen here.


Reminder: Nothing is Wiped for Steam Early Access
We've mentioned before that we'll be doing a partial wipe of character data when the game finally launches. (We won't be wiping your skill levels, but we will be deleting all items and money, aside from unique backer-reward items.) That's to help our game economy work better at launch time.

BUT!!! That's not happening any time soon! We're doing the partial wipe when the game officially launches at the end of 2018. Right now we're just switching from alpha to beta. Your characters will be entirely unchanged.


Simultaneous Steam Launch on All Platforms
Previously I'd said that the initial rollout on Steam would only be for Windows and Mac, and that Linux users would be unable to play for a while until the Linux version was ready. That's dumb and we aren't going to do that. Instead, we just delayed the Steam launch until it was ready on all three platforms. So when the game is for sale on Steam, it will be for sale for Windows, Mac, and Linux.


Don't Panic!
We've been working hard to make this a painless transition to Steam. There may be surprises or problems, but we have backup plans for every contingency. If something goes wrong, don't worry. We'll be able to fix it.

So that's the plan. Expect an email from us in a few weeks with your codes. And thank you again for being an alpha tester.

PS - We'll have another game update ready in a few days with bug-fixes, performance improvements, new-player improvements, and more.

[Citan]

A quick update on the timeline: We've decided to delay "pushing the button" on Steam by a week. I've made a couple of breakthroughs in optimization and bug-fixing that will make a notable difference, so I want to put out one more game update before we kick it off. (That game update will probably happen on Monday.)

[Silvonis]

(Reserved)

[Khnum]

\o/ Sounds like an awesome time to come back and see what state of fresh hell my gear's in. :D

[Tiamat]

We're finally approaching orbit. :)


If you backed us through Kickstarter or Indiegogo, you'll be able to see a message in-game showing which package you bought. That way, if there are any problems or errors, you can let us know early so we can address them.

Just for clarity, is this later or am I supposed to be able to see this now?

[Prios]

If you bought a package through the Gorgon Shop, we'll email you asking for your alpha account name and other info needed to fulfill your package. After we assign that info to your account, you'll see a message in-game confirming that you've got the right package.


What email account will these emails be coming from? I need to whitelist it because Gmail is a butt and tends to flag Project Gorgon emails as spam.

[westside]

Sounds amazing, congrats!

what sort of influx are you guys expecting and wha adjustments to the world are being made to be able to handle it (spawn rates, etc)

[Ryker]

Exciting times! Glad I can be a part of it and hopefully have done my part to help out some. I have backed you, so I will get the game, but has a launch price been finalized? Curious as I try to promote the game when and where I can.

[Daimes]

Will you still be able to buy the packages on the Gorgon Store after the Steam release? Will you be able to continue donating after Steam release, as well?

[Silvonis]

We're finally approaching orbit. :)


Just for clarity, is this later or am I supposed to be able to see this now?

You'll see it later, after we go live on Steam.


What email account will these emails be coming from? I need to whitelist it because Gmail is a butt and tends to flag Project Gorgon emails as spam.

We would recommend whitelisting projectgorgon.com so that you won't have any issue receiving emails from us. If you backed Project: Gorgon via Kickstarter and/or Indiegogo then you should also whitelist their domain(s).

[slartybartfastfree]

Will multiple gorgon accounts need multiple steam accounts and how easy or difficult will it be on steam to change from one account to another ? I am not familiar with the whole "steam" setup I just want to play gorgon , I understand I probably need to setup steam accounts on each of the pc's my family uses for gorgon but will I be able to switch between gorgon accounts or will I have to logout of steam then log back in onto another account , this may be problematic for muling

[Man With No Name]

What exactly would happen if I were to buy a package from the Gorgon Shop if I have already donated on Indiegogo?

[Crissa]

I assume it'll be one 'account' per Steam account, so if you already have to log out and into a different account name, you'd have to do this with Steam as well.

That's not so bad with Steam, it moves pretty quickly (I have to log out and into Steam on the PC since I share it with my spouse.) Since Steam holds the login on different computers separately, I don't have to log back into my Mac even if I've logged into the PC. So sharing or keeping a computer yours is not so bad with Steam.

If you want to share a game with another account on the same computer, you do have to log into that machine, share it to the other account, then log into that account and accept the sharing. It's a little awkward, but once set up, it's fine.

[Citan]

Will you still be able to buy the packages on the Gorgon Store after the Steam release? Will you be able to continue donating after Steam release, as well?

We don't have any reason to stop accepting donations, but at some point soon we need to stop accepting new purchases of the more expensive Gorgon Shop packages. I'm not sure the exact cutoff date. Probably right about the same time the two-week transition period ends.

I also wanted to mention that this is not to create artificial scarcity (the game is only going to beta, not launching, so why stop offering pre-launch bundles?). It's just for pragmatic reasons: the more expensive rewards involve a lot of hand-done bits, so it's best to do the work all at once, or as close to that as possible.

As an example, the packages that include a custom in-game title involve editing permanent data files for the game, and then carefully connecting that engine data to your in-game account after the next game-update. There's a lot of places where errors can creep in, so it's sanest to collect all the titles and do them at once, so we can test and debug better. (Plus another pass for scragglers and bugs we don't find in the first pass.)

But we may be able to offer other pre-launch packages with nice rewards that don't involve as much customization work on our parts. We haven't talked about that yet though.




What exactly would happen if I were to buy a package from the Gorgon Shop if I have already donated on Indiegogo?

Well, by default we'd expect you to be buying the new package for a separate account! If you wanted to upgrade an indiegogo package to a different Shop package, we can do that by hand if you email support@projectgorgon.com (expect it to take a few days to get back to you).




Will multiple gorgon accounts need multiple steam accounts and how easy or difficult will it be on steam to change from one account to another ?

Yes, each mule would need its own license of the game. And unfortunately it's a little bit slower to cross-account mule under Steam. You can't switch Steam accounts while the game is running, so you'd have to shut down the game, then switch accounts in Steam, then re-launch the game.

So personally I would hold off on buying extra copies of the game for mules. We're busy thinking about ways that the VIP package can make muling easier (for instance, by giving your account more character slots and a bigger shared-account-storage box). I think the VIP plan will be the easiest way to be a pack-rat in the future.



what sort of influx are you guys expecting and wha adjustments to the world are being made to be able to handle it (spawn rates, etc)

It's hard to predict, really, but I'm expecting a modest influx that hopefully gets bigger over time.

Back during the indiegogo campaign we had about 250% more players online than we do now. And while the game was still playable, the newbie experience was extremely cramped. That led to the complete rewrite of the newbie experience (the "newbie cave" became the "newbie island") and the addition of Serbule Hills as another low-level zone. So given that I'm not expecting a huge tidal wave of players on day one, I think we'll be fine now, and when we find new level ranges where things feel cramped, we can add new content during our regular updates.

As a backup, we have the ability to change outdoor spawn rates very easily, so if we get a surprise rush of players we'll speed up spawns with a quick reboot of the server.



I have backed you, so I will get the game, but has a launch price been finalized?

We're actually still discussing the exact final price, so please stay tuned!

[Tagamogi]

So personally I would hold off on buying extra copies of the game for mules. We're busy thinking about ways that the VIP package can make muling easier (for instance, by giving your account more character slots and a bigger shared-account-storage box). I think the VIP plan will be the easiest way to be a pack-rat in the future.


When would this part of the VIP package actually be available? Specifically, will it be available slightly before Steam is absolutely required, so we could transfer items from a not-paid-for mule account to a different account that is maxed out on character slots right now?

(This is not meant as a complaint to rush VIP features before they are ready; I've always known my mule habit would come to a bad end. I'm just trying to figure out if reshuffling my mule inventories to a different account is going to be a useful option for me.)

[INXS]

Can't recall which email address i've been using, does it matter if i buy a package using any email address?

[PezOfDoom]

How could I possibly panic, this is great to hear!

I'll be sure to help on the steam forums where I can with questions I'm sure people will have. You're baby is finally grown up...not graduated highschool yet, but at least they're in the running!

We all know this will come with people offering their critiques of the BETA as if it's a final product, so we should all be ready to leave reviews! I bet everyone at Elder Game, LLC is braced for it, but was as a community should be prepared as well.

Let us embrace ignorance with understanding and patience. Let us not hate people who want PG to be a free-to-play model, but rather explain the perks of a game which you purchase. Let us not explain how/why this should (or should not) be more like warcraft, but instead point out the joys of it's uniqueness.

And above all else, let us encourage people to explore the world and seek joy in it's discovery, rather than telling them exactly why they should only play a damage build using X and Y skills because everything else is inferior by 14.3 dps and only nubs who don't want group invites would choose to not wear chest armor for RP purposes. :rolleyes:

[Tagamogi]

How could I possibly panic, this is great to hear!

I'll be sure to help on the steam forums where I can with questions I'm sure people will have. You're baby is finally grown up...not graduated highschool yet, but at least they're in the running!

We all know this will come with people offering their critiques of the alpha as if it's a final product, so we should all be ready to leave reviews! I'm sure everyone at Elder Game, LLC is braced for it, but was as a community should be prepared as well.

Let us embrace ignorance with understanding and patience. Let us not hate people who want PG to be a free-to-play model, but rather explain the perks of a game which you purchase. Let us not explain how/why this could should (or should not) be more like warcraft, but instead point out the joys of it's uniqueness.

And above all else, let us encourage people to explore the world and seek joy in it's discovery, rather than telling them exactly why they should only play a damage build using X and Y skills because everything else is inferior by 14.3 dps and only nubs who don't want group invites would choose to not wear chest armor for RP purposes. :rolleyes:

Lovely post, thanks Monger!

I think I am going to panic though - I only have a couple weeks left to come up with an amazing Steam review that will make people want to rush out and buy the game. And it will need to be short enough that people actually read it. Sigh.

I'll definitely keep going back to your post for inspiration, so thanks again. ( And maybe it is time for me to get that spring fairy armor out of the bank, stats or no stats... ;) )

[fellentier]

Congratulations on getting so far. I've always looked forward to this day and i'm so happy to see it so close to the steam release. Great job :)

[Cowinator]

MooOooOoo!

[Gardum]

Pity the wipe doesn't happen once it goes to Steam as having to wait another 9+ months before I can play my permanent Main really doesn't give me much enthusiasm to play until near the end of the year as anything I collect or do till then is all wasted time.

Will levels be increased with the Steam release or over the next 9+ months as that would give reason to play, do we get to keep skills that we gain after steam or only what we gained as Alpha testers ?

If we get to keep what skills we gain once Beta starts then you may as well do the wipe from Steam release as we have to pay to play any way ?

Great game by the way, we were looking for an AC replacement for so long and PG is the closest to a game worth playing and putting some years into as we did with AC.

Cheers

[pete4613]

Pity the wipe doesn't happen once it goes to Steam as having to wait another 9+ months before I can play my permanent Main really doesn't give me much enthusiasm to play until near the end of the year as anything I collect or do till then is all wasted time.

Will levels be increased with the Steam release or over the next 9+ months as that would give reason to play, do we get to keep skills that we gain after steam or only what we gained as Alpha testers ?

If we get to keep what skills we gain once Beta starts then you may as well do the wipe from Steam release as we have to pay to play any way ?

Great game by the way, we were looking for an AC replacement for so long and PG is the closest to a game worth playing and putting some years into as we did with AC.

Cheers
Pardon me, but theres no reason to say that what players are doing right now is a waste of time when its not. Skills wont be wiped. What I've heard that im certain of is everything associated with the economy, money, items, favor etc.

Also, long ago it was said that up to the release on steam, the game would be at or near the 100-120 levels, however I'm not sure were nearing that within the next two weeks.

[Hipparchia]

Ty for the update

[Gardum]

Pardon me, but theres no reason to say that what players are doing right now is a waste of time when its not. Skills wont be wiped. What I've heard that im certain of is everything associated with the economy, money, items, favor etc.

Also, long ago it was said that up to the release on steam, the game would be at or near the 100-120 levels, however I'm not sure were nearing that within the next two weeks.

I couldn't find any information about the levels you mentioned, nor was it in the blog post about going to steam.

That was why my questions came into being I wanted clarification on what happens with Steam release as we need to own the game to continue playing it's no longer a free game ok ?

We were told Alpha testers would get to keep their skills, does this now include Beta testers if they have bought the game to play ?

If as I said we need to pay for the game to continue playing and we get to keep all skills learnt during the beta phase why not do the wipe now ?

Do we lose anything worse than waiting another 9+ months ? Would you be worse off in some way if you get to keep your skills any way ?

I don't understand your response to my quite reasonable question as though by them doing the wipe now you would be worse off ?

If they did the wipe at Steam launch we have something worth playing for as far as Guild quests go and as far as crafting.

Now all effort put into levelling a Guild will be totally wasted time and effort as nothing from that will be kept as Guilds aren't a Skill.

Why not wipe now you paid to continue playing and then we get to keep what we paid for at retail.

People can't complain about us getting to keep our skills if they could have started playing at Steam release Early access or not as they had the chance to pay to play then as well.

Same as if you decided to play any of the previous MMo's now you would enter a mature world.

People that want to be the explorers are people like myself and probably you as well since you are in the Alpha stage and we are the types of people that play the games with all the bugs and such as we enjoy helping a game become great (Hopefully) by finding bugs and giving suggestions and such.

I am sure you have paid for the game as otherwise you can't continue to play any way so a waste of your reply :)

Also I am 100% correct in anything I do with my toon from Beta on is a waste of time unless more levels are added as I can't level it any further and any skills I gain in other abilities will be only a thing I do as a past time since I can't level my character any further and I enjoy the two classes I use now.

Please explain your worries or doubts about why a wipe at Steam release would be a bad thing ?

[Citan]

Gardum - no, we aren't wiping guilds. We're wiping items to make the launch economy work better. Deleting guilds doesn't impact the economy so it'd just be dickish for no benefit.

Yes, of course skills earned during beta will be kept. Again, we're wiping items, not skills.

And yep, there will be more levels added during beta, that's what I meant by extending the game.

We aren't wiping items NOW, because that the game isn't balanced yet and many of the economic features aren't implemented.

Item wipe isn't a punishment. "Why not punish us now and get it over with?" is really the heart of your question, and the answer is: it's not being done as a punishment. It's an attempt to make the game economy work better after the game mechanics are fleshed out and balanced. It's not finished yet, so if we wiped things now we'd just have to wipe again at launch.

I know you have lots of questions, probably more that haven't been asked yet, and I'm happy to answer them. But please start from the idea that we're trying to be kind. I'm extremely grateful for the people who've taken the time to play this very-unfinished game over the years and I want to do right by them. That's why I don't want to wipe prematurely or over-aggressively. I'm going to be as surgical as possible about WHEN and WHAT we wipe because wiping stuff sucks: most people feel like it's wasting their time, making them repeat things they've already done and don't want to do again. But we can't avoid wipes entirely, so we'll make it as minimal as we can.

[Citan]

Can't recall which email address i've been using, does it matter if i buy a package using any email address?

We'll email you your keys via the email address you bought the package with (your kickstarter email, or your paypal email, etc.), not with the email address assigned to your game account right now. In other words, you don't need to use the same email as you used when you registered your game account.



When would this part of the VIP package actually be available? Specifically, will it be available slightly before Steam is absolutely required, so we could transfer items from a not-paid-for mule account to a different account that is maxed out on character slots right now?

Unfortunately the VIP system won't be ready until well after the Steam launch is finished. Sorry about that -- it's just due to how we need to order the feature implementation.

[Tchey]

I'm an happy Linux gamer.

[Gardum]

Gardum - no, we aren't wiping guilds. We're wiping items to make the launch economy work better. Deleting guilds doesn't impact the economy so it'd just be dickish for no benefit.

Yes, of course skills earned during beta will be kept. Again, we're wiping items, not skills.

And yep, there will be more levels added during beta, that's what I meant by extending the game.

We aren't wiping items NOW, because that the game isn't balanced yet and many of the economic features aren't implemented.

Item wipe isn't a punishment. "Why not punish us now and get it over with?" is really the heart of your question, and the answer is: it's not being done as a punishment. It's an attempt to make the game economy work better after the game mechanics are fleshed out and balanced. It's not finished yet, so if we wiped things now we'd just have to wipe again at launch.

I know you have lots of questions, probably more that haven't been asked yet, and I'm happy to answer them. But please start from the idea that we're trying to be kind. I'm extremely grateful for the people who've taken the time to play this very-unfinished game over the years and I want to do right by them. That's why I don't want to wipe prematurely or over-aggressively. I'm going to be as surgical as possible about WHEN and WHAT we wipe because wiping stuff sucks: most people feel like it's wasting their time, making them repeat things they've already done and don't want to do again. But we can't avoid wipes entirely, so we'll make it as minimal as we can.

Cheers for the reply :) and I wasn't really meaning it as though a wipe is a punishment as I have played other Alphas and always look forward to the wipe so that I can start for good :)
I don't see playing Alpha and beta as a waste of time as it helps make the game better in the long run, usually :)

So Guilds stay none of my Guild new that as we talked about how long it would take us to get the councils and what ever other items would be needed to make the guild at Launch as well as how to keep in touch with all the members that weren't registered on our guild website.

You have more than answered any queries we had and once I let my guild know these facts there will be a lot of happier people :)

Cheers and keep up the great work.

[Silvonis]

Gardum - no, we aren't wiping guilds. We're wiping items to make the launch economy work better. Deleting guilds doesn't impact the economy so it'd just be dickish for no benefit.

Yes, of course skills earned during beta will be kept. Again, we're wiping items, not skills.

And yep, there will be more levels added during beta, that's what I meant by extending the game.

We aren't wiping items NOW, because that the game isn't balanced yet and many of the economic features aren't implemented.

Item wipe isn't a punishment. "Why not punish us now and get it over with?" is really the heart of your question, and the answer is: it's not being done as a punishment. It's an attempt to make the game economy work better after the game mechanics are fleshed out and balanced. It's not finished yet, so if we wiped things now we'd just have to wipe again at launch.

I know you have lots of questions, probably more that haven't been asked yet, and I'm happy to answer them. But please start from the idea that we're trying to be kind. I'm extremely grateful for the people who've taken the time to play this very-unfinished game over the years and I want to do right by them. That's why I don't want to wipe prematurely or over-aggressively. I'm going to be as surgical as possible about WHEN and WHAT we wipe because wiping stuff sucks: most people feel like it's wasting their time, making them repeat things they've already done and don't want to do again. But we can't avoid wipes entirely, so we'll make it as minimal as we can.

I want to follow-up on Citan's statement on the wipe, particulary the statement that 'we're wiping items, not skills' because 'only a Sith deals in absolutes'. I just want to reiterate that while we do not plan on wiping skills, it could happen if we determine that it is necessary due to an overarching need (example: major skill redesign that requires it). To that end, here is the 'offical' statement on wipes: "There will not be a complete wipe at launch. That said, we will be wiping some aspects of your character including but not limited to: items, currency, NPC favor levels, and favor-quests. However, we don’t plan on wiping most skill levels. Please note, this is subject to change as we progress through development."

Also: once we are on Steam we will be moving to 'beta', and that means we are in-development and not a released game. You may see some titles using 'beta' as a trial and not an actual beta - but we are truly in-development and those participating should view it as testing and not playing early. We truly need testers, more so than just 'players'. If you are confused on the difference, I would encourage you to check out the PROJECT: GORGON TESTING GUIDE! (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?342-Project-Gorgon-Testing-Guide!)

[Panties]

I want to follow-up on Citan's statement on the wipe, particulary the statement that 'we're wiping items, not skills'...because we don’t plan on wiping most skill levels. Please note, this is subject to change as we progress through development."

This is very vague and what is written here worries me.

Statistically (and in this case), "most" only means more than 50%, that is, if 49% of skills are wiped at launch, then technically, "most" skills were not wiped.

That when juxtaposed with the last sentence, which essentially says, "We actually can't guarantee you anything", makes this follow-up come across as overtly ominous.

All throughout alpha, we've been putting our trust into Citan and the PG team to make good on the promise of not wiping our skills. As alpha players, we made a deal with you guys to test the game and report bugs in exchange for keeping our hard-earned skills.

As they say, if something is free, then you are the commodity. Under this arrangement then, "testing for skills", I am okay with being the commodity. However if things suddenly changed to, "testing for free", well then I would simply feel just plain taken advantage of.

No doubt, my PG experience has been great fun, but it's also been a lot of hard work. If I knew skills were going to be wiped at launch, I certainly never would have kept playing past just maxing my first combat skills, let alone running around Eltibule farming stomachs for 3 straight weeks just to max a single skill, cheesemaking.

That said, aside from this issue, the PG team has been wonderful to work with. I was truly amazed when Srand replied to one of my bug reports on Christmas Eve. This impressed me so much actually, that I went to the forums and purchased a crowdfunding package as a result.

I truly hope that I am just reading into your follow-up to Citan's post more than was intended. I would love to continue playing PG for years to come, but if a significant portion of my skill levels are reset at launch, I will likely quit forever.

[Madmatx]

All throughout alpha, we've been putting our trust into Citan and the PG team to make good on the promise of not wiping our skills. As alpha players, we made a deal with you guys to test the game and report bugs in exchange for keeping our hard-earned skills.

I'm pretty sure the EULA never guaranteed keeping every skill. In fact, it says that they might need to patch or reset things for game balance.
There might be major updates to some skills that warrant a reset. Or there might be a crafting skill that is proven to unbalance the early economy at higher levels.

That said, I seriously doubt they plan to reset 49% of all skills and are being deceptive just to fool people into playing the game for free during Alpha.

[Corinthia]

Wow. Just had to chime in.

I've been playing PG off and on since 2015. The dev team has always been very upfront and respectful of us player testers. They have always been very clear they could not guarantee something wouldn't be nerfed or reset if that were needed to make the best game possible.

Over this time, I have found it a joy to play daily for a few months, then take a break. When I return a couple of updates later, I wipe my old characters and start the experience fresh just to get a feel for the changes "from the ground up."

I'm afraid I'm not being as helpful as those consistent veteran players who can jump right on the changes with immediate feedback, but I hope my ever-fresh eyes can contribute a little.

I really believe PG has the most engaging MMO game design being developed right now, and, for my part, I think it would be a shame to settle for anything less than the best version of what it can be.

[Karamasha]

Wow. Just had to chime in.

I've been playing PG off and on since 2015. The dev team has always been very upfront and respectful of us player testers. They have always been very clear they could not guarantee something wouldn't be nerfed or reset if that were needed to make the best game possible.

Over this time, I have found it a joy to play daily for a few months, then take a break. When I return a couple of updates later, I wipe my old characters and start the experience fresh just to get a feel for the changes "from the ground up."

I'm afraid I'm not being as helpful as those consistent veteran players who can jump right on the changes with immediate feedback, but I hope my ever-fresh eyes can contribute a little.

I really believe PG has the most engaging MMO game design being developed right now, and, for my part, I think it would be a shame to settle for anything less than the best version of what it can be.

Yeah it's kinda obvious the game is in a way too early state to promise the keeping of most skills.
I just wish they delay the VIP until they have a skill system they're satisfied with.
I don't want the VIP time to tick during a test version of the game.

[Silvonis]

This is very vague and what is written here worries me.

Statistically (and in this case), "most" only means more than 50%, that is, if 49% of skills are wiped at launch, then technically, "most" skills were not wiped.

That when juxtaposed with the last sentence, which essentially says, "We actually can't guarantee you anything", makes this follow-up come across as overtly ominous.

All throughout alpha, we've been putting our trust into Citan and the PG team to make good on the promise of not wiping our skills. As alpha players, we made a deal with you guys to test the game and report bugs in exchange for keeping our hard-earned skills.

As they say, if something is free, then you are the commodity. Under this arrangement then, "testing for skills", I am okay with being the commodity. However if things suddenly changed to, "testing for free", well then I would simply feel just plain taken advantage of.

No doubt, my PG experience has been great fun, but it's also been a lot of hard work. If I knew skills were going to be wiped at launch, I certainly never would have kept playing past just maxing my first combat skills, let alone running around Eltibule farming stomachs for 3 straight weeks just to max a single skill, cheesemaking.

That said, aside from this issue, the PG team has been wonderful to work with. I was truly amazed when Srand replied to one of my bug reports on Christmas Eve. This impressed me so much actually, that I went to the forums and purchased a crowdfunding package as a result.

I truly hope that I am just reading into your follow-up to Citan's post more than was intended. I would love to continue playing PG for years to come, but if a significant portion of my skill levels are reset at launch, I will likely quit forever.

The statement I shared has always been the official stance. It's in the FAQ and the Testers Guide. Please don't read into something that's not plainly stated. What is plainly stated is that we currently have no plans to remove skills and that won't change unless absolutely necessary.

[Khaylara]

Just detailing Silvonis's statement from a player's point of view. Even untill now some skillsets were completely revamped and obviously the mods went through radical changes as well (equivalent to a gear wipe). As quick examples- augmentation was completely redone at some point, some combat skills are almost un-recognizable (like lycan, the changes made to it were mostly based on players's feedback), our gear was wiped/legacied a few times. Note that the NPC that exchanges legacy gear now was only added about a year and a half ago and we didn't have that option. And it didn't prevent us from playing, at least I didn't consider it being terribly disruptive.
What they are saying is that they reserve the right to revamp skillsets completely if they need to do that in order to balance the game. Which I think it's a fair call and not something to worry about. My only suggestion to developers on this matter is to announce the changes (especially after the game goes b2play). As much as we like surprises, being stuck with a ton of useless augmentation oils or with a perfectly naked lycan character was a bit upsetting if not gamebreaking^^With proper notice I really don't think this should be a worry for the players

[Celler]

Perhaps I'm mistaken but this appears to be the first time I've noticed you are wiping NPC favor(silvonis post). Like many I have many npc 's to soulmates this will be a great loss, it will also remove most of the storages around the gameworld.
What your actually saying is everything will go except the skills and recipes that are currently learnt, we will have to re favor up all the npc's just to get any remaining skills/recipes. This gives someone who has everything from a none shopkeeper type npc a large advantage over someone that in theory has to spend masses of materials to learn the last few things.
Or do I misunderstand and will all recipes etc be lost when favor reverts to 0.

[Tagamogi]

The favor wipe was mentioned as "probable" by Citan a couple months or so ago, likely in one of our periodic wipe anxiety threads. I'm too lazy to search for it right now, sorry. Before that, I hadn't seen any information on it one way or the other.

The favor wipe sounds pretty reasonable to me as part of the economic balancing. And yes, players that do not have to level up a trainer NPC will have an advantage, but I don't think that's nearly as big as letting everyone keep their soulmates storage and bought bank slots. I expect most players will eventually work on getting back to soulmates again anyway, necessary or not. Also, there's the new year's gift celebration as incentive to level to at least Like Family.

[Madmatx]

It may have been posted before but this was from a month ago:


[First, a reminder that the item-reset happens when we leave steam early access, and that's a year away. (And that's being kind of optimistic.) So I wouldn't worry too much about it personally.]

Yes, NPC favor levels will be reset. The biggest reason we're doing the item-reset is to reduce inflation and give the game's economy a little bit of breathing room. Because favor gives you so much added money-making power, I think letting you keep your favor will undermine the point too much.

On the other hand, your favor-quests will also be reset, and with higher level it's likely that you'll be able to breeze through a lot of the favors to easily get the first few favor levels. So you'll still have a very significant advantage. But hopefully not "potatoes are trading at 1k apiece in the first week" levels of bad.

https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?1009-Will-we-keep-our-NPC-Favor-at-Steam-launch&p=7799&viewfull=1#post7799

[Citan]

Silvonis was reminding people that the game will change during beta. This will be a working beta, not a PR beta. Lots of big games these days use the word "beta" to mean "free play time," and you can expect very few changes during those betas. But we will be working very hard on the game design so a lot of things will change.

We do sometimes need to dramatically redesign skills, and basically reset them as a consequence. That's only happened a couple times during the game's long development time, so I expect it'd only happen once or twice during beta. But I don't know for sure. That's not even related to the "partial wipe". That's just something that might happen as we work on balance.

Much more likely than actually "wiping" a skill is changing it to the point where it's unrecognizable. I've talked about changing Battle Chemistry very dramatically by breaking it into two skills, and that still may happen. So what you currently call Battle Chemistry may not be the parts of the skill you love; they may be moved to a new skill. And if that happens, you'd need to level up that new skill to get it back. Other skills may get reworked in similar fashion.

And I can pretty much guarantee that your favorite abilities will change their stats, gear mods will be revamped multiple times, monsters' relative power will go up and down as we try to bring this very complex game into a basic sort of balance. (It'll never be perfectly balanced, as that would be impossible and also super boring. But it will be a lot more balanced than it is now.)

---

Let me put it another way. If, during beta, we realize something needs to be changed, we will NEVER say, "no, we can't make that change -- it's beta! Too late! The players' current characters would be impacted too much!" No. It's beta, meaning that it's the perfect time to make critical changes. So please expect them.

Also expect that we'll do our best, given the circumstances of each individual change, to lessen the impact of those changes. For instance, when skills have changed really dramatically in the past, we've given players free gear transmutations for a week to help get them back into fighting form. Or when an item is changed too heavily for the auto-updater to automatically rebuild the item, it becomes "legacy gear", which means it keeps working in its now-imbalanced state for 30 days to give you time to find a replacement. That sort of thing isn't always practical or called for, but we'll do what we can to keep beta players happy and engaged.

But yeah, changes. Tons of changes. Often uncomfortable nerfs. That's to be expected during beta. And if you don't want to deal with that, and want to wait until the game launches, that's entirely understandable.

[Karamasha]

Silvonis was reminding people that the game will change during beta. This will be a working beta, not a PR beta. Lots of big games these days use the word "beta" to mean "free play time," and you can expect very few changes during those betas. But we will be working very hard on the game design so a lot of things will change.

We do sometimes need to dramatically redesign skills, and basically reset them as a consequence. That's only happened a couple times during the game's long development time, so I expect it'd only happen once or twice during beta. But I don't know for sure. That's not even related to the "partial wipe". That's just something that might happen as we work on balance.

Much more likely than actually "wiping" a skill is changing it to the point where it's unrecognizable. I've talked about changing Battle Chemistry very dramatically by breaking it into two skills, and that still may happen. So what you currently call Battle Chemistry may not be the parts of the skill you love; they may be moved to a new skill. And if that happens, you'd need to level up that new skill to get it back. Other skills may get reworked in similar fashion.

And I can pretty much guarantee that your favorite abilities will change their stats, gear mods will be revamped multiple times, monsters' relative power will go up and down as we try to bring this very complex game into a basic sort of balance. (It'll never be perfectly balanced, as that would be impossible and also super boring. But it will be a lot more balanced than it is now.)

---

Let me put it another way. If, during beta, we realize something needs to be changed, we will NEVER say, "no, we can't make that change -- it's beta! Too late! The players' current characters would be impacted too much!" No. It's beta, meaning that it's the perfect time to make critical changes. So please expect them.

Also expect that we'll do our best, given the circumstances of each individual change, to lessen the impact of those changes. For instance, when skills have changed really dramatically in the past, we've given players free gear transmutations for a week to help get them back into fighting form. Or when an item is changed too heavily for the auto-updater to automatically rebuild the item, it becomes "legacy gear", which means it keeps working in its now-imbalanced state for 30 days to give you time to find a replacement. That sort of thing isn't always practical or called for, but we'll do what we can to keep beta players happy and engaged.

But yeah, changes. Tons of changes. Often uncomfortable nerfs. That's to be expected during beta. And if you don't want to deal with that, and want to wait until the game launches, that's entirely understandable.

Thanks for making these things more clear, keep up the amazing work!

[fellentier]

Silvonis was reminding people that the game will change during beta. This will be a working beta, not a PR beta. Lots of big games these days use the word "beta" to mean "free play time," and you can expect very few changes during those betas. But we will be working very hard on the game design so a lot of things will change.

We do sometimes need to dramatically redesign skills, and basically reset them as a consequence. That's only happened a couple times during the game's long development time, so I expect it'd only happen once or twice during beta. But I don't know for sure. That's not even related to the "partial wipe". That's just something that might happen as we work on balance.

Much more likely than actually "wiping" a skill is changing it to the point where it's unrecognizable. I've talked about changing Battle Chemistry very dramatically by breaking it into two skills, and that still may happen. So what you currently call Battle Chemistry may not be the parts of the skill you love; they may be moved to a new skill. And if that happens, you'd need to level up that new skill to get it back. Other skills may get reworked in similar fashion.

And I can pretty much guarantee that your favorite abilities will change their stats, gear mods will be revamped multiple times, monsters' relative power will go up and down as we try to bring this very complex game into a basic sort of balance. (It'll never be perfectly balanced, as that would be impossible and also super boring. But it will be a lot more balanced than it is now.)

---

Let me put it another way. If, during beta, we realize something needs to be changed, we will NEVER say, "no, we can't make that change -- it's beta! Too late! The players' current characters would be impacted too much!" No. It's beta, meaning that it's the perfect time to make critical changes. So please expect them.

Also expect that we'll do our best, given the circumstances of each individual change, to lessen the impact of those changes. For instance, when skills have changed really dramatically in the past, we've given players free gear transmutations for a week to help get them back into fighting form. Or when an item is changed too heavily for the auto-updater to automatically rebuild the item, it becomes "legacy gear", which means it keeps working in its now-imbalanced state for 30 days to give you time to find a replacement. That sort of thing isn't always practical or called for, but we'll do what we can to keep beta players happy and engaged.

But yeah, changes. Tons of changes. Often uncomfortable nerfs. That's to be expected during beta. And if you don't want to deal with that, and want to wait until the game launches, that's entirely understandable.










I do have a question that has been on the top of my mind for a while. I'm very much so into min maxing and finding the best possible set up for what I want to do specifically, and i've found this game intrinsically complicated. I'ts been quite enjoyable, but I would like to know something. When you balance a skill, do you consider the effect of other skills on the primary when balancing it? Overall, it feels like it has been done quite well, minus a skill or two here and there, but synergy seems to be a complicated issue. I'm a huge fan of animalism and don't spend very much time researching other skills and their combined effects, but i've noticed that a large number of skills that animals can use are either entirely useless, or insanely powerful depending on the current animal form.


I just wanted to throw this out there because i've started to build around it and it feels... odd.

After doing some calculations on how abilities scale, reading other player input and getting a good idea of how everything works, mock is very strange. I'd suggest looking into it to see if you agree with how it functions. Currently, because it deals direct health damage, it actually ends up as one of the best DPS abilities you can get. If you have lycan, for example, being able to modify the base damage with the MASSIVE percent damage multipliers that it has access to, you can get it to well above 2,000 damage on a 6 sec (+4 with mods) cd with no cost, that is absolutely devastating.

This build does require a lot of build up for it, and some preemptive usage and ends up being something that requires a lot.. of mods. But also ends up being insanely efficient for single target damage (phsych lych).

[Gervase]

I don't mean to sound like a doo-doo head or anything.

But I hope the pricetag that comes along with this game isn't something out there like it claims to be on the store page (Digital Version: 39.99$)

I currently don't play right now because I felt the game wasn't in the right place, and perhaps it is on me for not divulging feedback sooner but then again - just from other games I have found that to be null. Regardless I have a certain passion for the game and will do so now.

- Character creation is limited. Not saying it needs to be overly zealous in the wrinkles I can have on my right cheek, but it helps to distinguish your character from others.

- Character models typically bug out when zooming in or out from them, when wearing certain pieces of gear, or even swimming. Hair disappears, stuff clips, etc.

- The armor in the game is downright hideous.

- Controls are honestly very clunky.

- I personally don't mind the animations all that much. But they could be improved (As with anything)

- I find the RNG of the item-drop system kind of annoying? I'm not saying break the game so that we can choose how we build piece by piece. But from my understanding (Which may be wrong) you essentially farm for gear that has random augmentations on them. You have no control on changing them, or extracting and replacing them to another piece, etc.

- I know the game boils down to 'having fun' as with any game, but (As you even said) beta is the time to do those drastic changes. I feel like there are a few classes which are severely under powered. Maybe I'm again, wrong, because I didn't have the 'perfect gear' set-up. I enjoyed the idea of being a Fire Druid. But I just found that in most cases, the druid skills were severely useless in some cases (Which is fine) but it was with -most- situations (In my experiences). I ended up going Fire Staff, which I found is twenty times better. Could of just been a lack of experimentation.

- Leveling up new abilities can sometimes be painful to do. No, I'm not saying make it easier. But the grind it self just doubles, or triples, and immediately saps the fun out of it. Considering it no longer is like.. 'Ok, I should use my wit to do X, Y, and Z to achieve my goal.' It instead is turned into 'Ok, just keep doing the same mindless task for a week and I'll rank it up!' Again, my own personal experience. No, I (honestly) don't care if you can level your skills in three days to the max.. or if 'you' found it easy. This is all from -my- experiences.

- While I know there are a lot of hidden features in the game that give it the enjoyable moments of spur - I think this is where PG is strong, continue down this path. Give us alternating and random mobs that appear in zones, events that trigger, etc. Going around and grinding favor and leveling up skills can get repetitive easy.

- Better tutorial. I'm not saying revamp the entire island. But there should be more hand holding in explaining stats, skills (Present and future), perhaps suggestions on basic combinations that synergize well, etc. Yeah -- A lot of 'hardcore' or 'DIY' would probably chew my head off, but I don't care. I COME from a hardcore gaming background. While I found learning stuff slowly 'fun' in a certain cruel way - It definitely left me ignorant for way longer than I needed to be. Don't give out all the good information - but at least explain to us what everything is capable of. If you think that's already present - add more. Anytime I've introduced friends to this game, they get bored and confused about an hour in. Usually -after- leaving the tutorial island.

- The game is obviously meant to draw people together into groups, there should be more content like the random events, mobs, etc. for those who play solo. I personally play solo, which is why I'm most likely ignorant to more complex things in-game, however I find it sometimes just 'boring' when trying to log in to play. It's like I can go do anything - and nothing at the same time. Nothing really drives me except my self. The most I can look forward to is a few things. More skill levels, more councils, more materials, and more gear. I don't really look for anything else beyond that (Besides the stuff in between like favor grinding). Sometimes I like the incentive to just go out and do anything at all. Maybe have towns provide daily tasks in exchange for money, a gear piece for the zones level, skill XP, etc.


I -could- go on, but this is just stuff off the top of my head. I'll speak to some of my friends who played and get their own 'comments' on the game. As they came in with no 'buttering up' from my self. The only reason I stuck with the game for a good amount of time is because I -was- having fun at one point, I no longer do when trying to even play test stuff. Which begs the question 'Should I be having fun?' Who knows.

Circling back to the original opening. I just hope you don't make this game pricey when putting it on early access, because if you do I guarantee it will not work. You'll have people buy it and then complain about wanting a refund. I'd shoot for 10$ being your MAX price.

Anyone is free to disagree, or to debate my points. I'll gladly stand and defend them.

[Celler]

OK thanks for the Clarification with regard to favor, I keep disappearing for long periods so imagine I just missed those posts.

[Tagamogi]

- Controls are honestly very clunky.

Can you give specific examples? I'm more of a slow keyboard person, so I may be missing some stuff but with all the post-new UI improvements, I feel the controls I'm interested in are mostly very very nice.

(Edit: Oh yeah, wait, targeting could use some help. What else?)



- I find the RNG of the item-drop system kind of annoying? I'm not saying break the game so that we can choose how we build piece by piece. But from my understanding (Which may be wrong) you essentially farm for gear that has random augmentations on them. You have no control on changing them, or extracting and replacing them to another piece, etc.

I don't think I get what you are saying here. If you extract an augment from an item that has only one mod for the skill gem that you are using, you will always get that augment. So, that applies to all green, blue and some orange gear. For gear with 2-3 mods for the skill gem that you use, you have at least a fairly decent chance of getting it. Obviously, you can't control if an item with a given mod will ever drop for you, but the odds of that are really pretty good.

Transmutation then allows you to change existing mods on gear. The new mod is chance-based but if you are willing to blow enough money on prisms and phlogiston, you should be able to get the mod you want eventually.

To me, RNG + transmutation + augmentation feels like a really nice system that both allows you to enjoy random great drops and to put in work to improve your gear.



- I feel like there are a few classes which are severely under powered. Maybe I'm again, wrong, because I didn't have the 'perfect gear' set-up. I enjoyed the idea of being a Fire Druid. But I just found that in most cases, the druid skills were severely useless in some cases (Which is fine) but it was with -most- situations (In my experiences). I ended up going Fire Staff, which I found is twenty times better. Could of just been a lack of experimentation.

Druid feels a bit underwhelming to me, too. Not bad, just not as exciting as some other skills. It feels like it would be a really nice skill if I could just use 8 abilities instead of 6.

There are a couple skills that feel like they could use some touch ups, but that's always the case in any game, even released ones. [ Suppressing rant about all the ways WoW modified my shaman and how shaman severely sucked compared to paladin at release. Well, maybe not suppressing it that well. ]



Maybe have towns provide daily tasks in exchange for money, a gear piece for the zones level, skill XP, etc.

Please, no dailies ever. Dailies for me quickly become required daily chores that suck all joy out of a game.

( I'm ok with Pennoc's and Lakrea's quests since they feel solidly optional to me. I do them when it's convenient and ignore them if it isn't. I'm not quite sure about the guild quests yet but it helps that they are at least on a weekly timer.)



- Cheating in the game (to my knowledge) is still entirely possible, and downright easy. While I didn't condone the action, nor' did I (or the user himself) use it to exploit any advantages, showed that simple stuff can easily manipulate some client side stuff like speed. I know you say to report exploiting and cheating when seen - but there isn't even enough in-game presence (Both players and mod / admin wise) to even do that.

But what you saw, you have reported, right? With details, so that the devs can take steps against it?



The only reason I stuck with the game for a good amount of time is because I -was- having fun at one point, I no longer do when trying to even play test stuff. Which begs the question 'Should I be having fun?' Who knows.

Well, I can't tell you you should be having fun. Tastes differ. I don't think it makes sense to base the price of a game on how much fun one particular player is having though. Fishing in my head for an example: Back in the day, you had to buy Guild Wars 2. Quite a few of my friends liked it, so when they had a free trial weekend, I tried it out. Based on my experience, I'd rate its worth as approximately negative $2000 since they'd have to pay me to play it again. That's likely not a price that most people would consider appropriate though.

[Gervase]

Can you give specific examples? I'm more of a slow keyboard person, so I may be missing some stuff but with all the post-new UI improvements, I feel the controls I'm interested in are mostly very very nice.


I don't think I get what you are saying here. If you extract an augment from an item that has only one mod for the skill gem that you are using, you will always get that augment. So, that applies to all green, blue and some orange gear. For gear with 2-3 mods for the skill gem that you use, you have at least a fairly decent chance of getting it. Obviously, you can't control if an item with a given mod will ever drop for you, but the odds of that are really pretty good.

Transmutation then allows you to change existing mods on gear. The new mod is chance-based but if you are willing to blow enough money on prisms and phlogiston, you should be able to get the mod you want eventually.

To me, RNG + transmutation + augmentation feels like a really nice system that both allows you to enjoy random great drops and to put in work to improve your gear.


Druid feels a bit underwhelming to me, too. Not bad, just not as exciting as some other skills. It feels like it would be a really nice skill if I could just use 8 abilities instead of 6.

There are a couple skills that feel like they could use some touch ups, but that's always the case in any game, even released ones. [ Suppressing rant about all the ways WoW modified my shaman and how shaman severely sucked compared to paladin at release. Well, maybe not suppressing it that well. ]


Please, no dailies ever. Dailies for me quickly become required daily chores that suck all joy out of a game.

( I'm ok with Pennoc's and Lakrea's quests since they feel solidly optional to me. I do them when it's convenient and ignore them if it isn't. I'm not quite sure about the guild quests yet but it helps that they are at least on a weekly timer.)


But what you saw, you have reported, right? With details, so that the devs can take steps against it?


Well, I can't tell you you should be having fun. Tastes differ. I don't think it makes sense to base the price of a game on how much fun one particular player is having though. Fishing in my head for an example: Back in the day, you had to buy Guild Wars 2. Quite a few of my friends liked it, so when they had a free trial weekend, I tried it out. Based on my experience, I'd rate its worth as approximately negative $2000 since they'd have to pay me to play it again. That's likely not a price that most people would consider appropriate though.

I just updated the game and played it. About the movement it self. I would say rather.. clunky may be the wrong word? It feels awkward at times moving around. Especially if jumping, turning, etc. It's a combination of the movement it self, the animations, and the sound. It feels awkward at times. (But I did take note of the extensive options for turning and other movement, so props there.)

I personally had to go read up on the wiki more about Augmentation and Transmutation. While I'm sure working with it hands on would make it much more clear, I get the general idea of it. It still has the process of RNG with some items and, as you said "Blowing the money" to eventually get what you want, is kind of "Okay-ish" in my opinion.

Druids just sadden me a bit. It's like we get a 'travel form', our titles, and are required to do these world events (If those still happen, or are a thing) but it is indeed very underwhelming for 'taking on the responsibility' of one. I think druids should be given more tools to operate with given their 'vows' so to speak.

By the dailies I mean something that is entirely optional and doesn't pop up on your screen on every daily log in. These can be random or generated tasks that would be listen from a town leader / bailiff just for extra work, experience, or gear for those of us who just want something 'to do' while getting some form of progression.

As with the cheating bit, as I stated. It was someone I knew who had done it - but it wasn't for the purpose of playing the game. They got off the tutorial island, did some random stuff here and there for ten to fifteen minutes. Then decided to see if the game had anti-cheat. It doesn't. They were very easily able to speed hack around the game. Shortly after, they just stopped playing. The game didn't engage them, or they didn't engage it (Which ever you'd like to think), the general animations and graphics of the gear and the characters was 'dull' to their opinion (Which I agree with), and they didn't like the idea of knowing the game had no means of anti-cheat. Though I would hope this is remedied when it goes onto Steam. Admins, mods, and players can't always be there to see this happening.

This was more of 'Should I be having fun?' when trying to gauge the games ability to be played. I of course (When playing PG a lot) -did- have fun. But at this point I just lack the drive to want to play. I feel as if I've hit a wall, can't really progress solo anymore (Which is of my own making) and generally don't enjoy the grind of some things with my limited time (Again, my own issue not so much the games). I feel I'd give PG more time if things were a bit more engaging, quirky, and solely focused on the idea of puzzles, using your wit, etc. etc.

In the end, both in response to Tagamogi and just the PG community and staff in general - I really do enjoy the game. I just can't play it right now as I have no drive to, and I most likely won't be picking it up when it comes onto Steam. I don't feel like it's ready. One of the biggest things is for me is that I personally dislike not having my friends to play with on this game, but they lost interest after the tutorial island. I did to, to some degree. But stuck it out to immerse my self and dig deeper. I think if the game had more stuff that mimicked the tutorial island - I'd find my self still playing.

I'm sure plenty of people will swear up and down that the game is full of such things, which I don't doubt.. but in my experience I've only found less and less. It's mainly just been reduced to grinding and just killing things for me.

The next few bits aren't meant to hammer at PG because of 'bad graphics'. I'm actually quite okay with the art style and the way things look. It's just in the manner they're done in is what bothers me, and the.. 'condition' of some.

https://i.imgur.com/wAnsPJO.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y73QB7U2GiI&feature=youtu.be

[Karamasha]

Please, no dailies ever. Dailies for me quickly become required daily chores that suck all joy out of a game.


I am also against dailies, it's very common they become the main way of progression and money making.
In some games it almost became the only way of progression, like WoW during the Warlords of draenor expansion you made almost no gold if you didn't do the daily chores in the garrison. yuck!

[fellentier]

I am also against dailies, it's very common they become the main way of progression and money making.
In some games it almost became the only way of progression, like WoW during the Warlords of draenor expansion you made almost no gold if you didn't do the daily chores in the garrison. yuck!


I cannot agree more.

[Gervase]

I am also against dailies, it's very common they become the main way of progression and money making.
In some games it almost became the only way of progression, like WoW during the Warlords of draenor expansion you made almost no gold if you didn't do the daily chores in the garrison. yuck!


I cannot agree more.

So what would you suggest then. I honestly don't find much to engage the player other than 'Hey. My skill is now 60.' There isn't much drive to do anything other than to become stronger and better prepared, but it's a bit lack luster.

Like even now - I just don't play because I honestly am at a loss on how to proceed, and don't find the content of my level all that interesting. Even heard the same thing from multiple people when I had them trying the game that the tutorial island was a great and engaging area - but everything after that was just shallow.

Not entirely interested in the stalwart defenders of 'Well, they just can't appreciate the lack of hand holding and the concept of seeking out information or things to do.' Because what is going to happen is - is people will start in the game, be drawn in by the tutorial, then thrusted out into a world that while is curiously fun to explore and learn about, they'll be extremely ignorant on how to proceed unless they gain a lot of assistance both through web-searching and other players. Which deters people and sometimes misleads them into ruts and then they never return. This would also be a different situation if the game was just released onto steam for free (But that isn't the case here)

I play another game that has this issue, and it ends up TRAPPING players in the starting city because otherwise they're unable to fend for themselves outside of it. It coddles and feeds very little information - then leaves you on your own. Which appeals to some, but given the gameplay and other things as I mentioned in previous posts (Along with unspoken issues and just general gameplay) leads to a decline in playing.

To be fair. I'm just going to take a stab and say (currently) with the way PG is, it'll appeal to a very niche group of people (More niche than they're projecting) and just from speaking to the community both in-game and on the forums on multiple occasions - those who currently play are more than likely set in the idea that the game is fine proceeding how it is.

I agree entirely with my friend, even if it was blunt and rude. I don't think the game is really ready for a paid release - and if it does follow through, it'll probably flop hard on the account of how niche it is. Which isn't bad - but just the current content I really don't think is going to hold many players beyond those who are here (Already dedicated) and those who want something as specific as this.

[Silvonis]

Gervase: It's obvious that you have issues with Project: Gorgon and that's okay, not all games will appeal to all people. We appreciate your feedback, but if you are unhappy with the fundamental aspects of Project: Gorgon then you may be better off playing a game like Final Fantasy. I’ve read your comments and, to be frank, you are complaining about incomplete game systems in an in-development game. Honestly, it sounds like you just want to ‘play’ rather than ‘test’ and if that’s the case you would probably be better off just coming back closer to the official launch.

As far as this thread is concerned, let's keep it on track. If you want to start a different thread to continue with your feedback, you are more than welcome to do so. Thanks.

[Nyssa74]

Gervase
Then perhaps this niche game is not for you. And doesnt almost any game eventually boils down to becoming stronger and better prepared as you said?

If they went as so many mmos do with the hand holding I would not play this game!
Getting tired of 90% of mmos or other games practically use an arrow pointing your every step you have to go to.
I come from the era when Everquest 1 and 2 was my life and things were hard! in game.
They did screw up EQ2 when they made it "easier" for casuals.
Maybe its just me but its not that difficult. Talk to the npc, explore everything, enough small hints as to what should be done or where to go mostly. And if anyones having problems with something just ask, the community is very very helpful, they dont bite...much, love it when I have to figure out something and just go and try and most likely fail the 1st time.All is part of the game.
Why would asking/looking for help deter people? If they want simple run of the mill games this is not where they should be.

Im getting the feeling your posts conclusion is more of a "I dont want to pay ( enter amount ) as it is/ not rdy yet for you" which amount isnt even certain yet, besides the fear that the game may or may not do well.
Though I would easily pay about $30 now cause Im enjoying it so much and I dont even have much to spend to be honest.

Speaking from my view who just recently started Im loving this game, even if the char creation is lacking or combat isnt super duper high end blade and soul type or whatever game that has better combat, or still has some bugs/issues, which are still being reported, at least I do.

Im in the lvl30ties and have a ton to do from quests to learning, lvling certain skills and I dont find anything shallow at all.
Not in a hurry and enjoying the world/immersion and lore while figuring out skill combinations that suits my play style.
I am prob one of the few players who dont care about xp and dont hurry to high to max lv.
Also have 2 alts so got my hands full. Im really having a blast with my fellow guildies.
Dont even touch most of the so called triple A games I have.

I too showed the game to some friends and they also were not sure about graphics, combat etc, now one of them is addicted heh.
For me the game is fun. I wont tell you what you should do, thats your prerogative but I think you have answered yourself how you feel about the game in multiple posts.
If Im not having fun I will not play. I have played tons of mmos and 98% screwed up at a certain point for me, which usually was not listening/no feedback to playerbase, no updates/optimizations or simply a cashgrab.
I hope the small group of people working on this game can keep it up, polish the game further and add more content for high lvls eventually. At least I wont be there any time soon, have lots to do ingame.

Almost everyone has a different taste/interest and speaking from many experiences usually my views will differ( also the reason for example why I dont care much about other reviews/taste/rottentomatoes/imdb etc etc, I want to try/see it myself if Im able to).
But like admin said this is not the thread for it heh.

[INXS]

Little wipe, partial wipe or full wipe entirely up to the developers, I really enjoy the game and I know it's alpha/beta therefore this stuff is expected.

[Gervase]

As you were then. I just disagree on the idea of releasing the game onto steam with a price tag when stuff as simple as armor appearing invisible, disappearing, or flashing when worn. Minor stuff adds up, on top of major things.

Silvonis

'I’ve read your comments and, to be frank, you are complaining about incomplete game systems in an in-development game. Honestly, it sounds like you just want to ‘play’ rather than ‘test’ and if that’s the case you would probably be better off just coming back closer to the official launch.'

Incomplete game systems, in an in-development game - where you want people to test content for a price tag. My only point was based on the fact that I come from a game that is 'similar' in makeup (Perhaps not in goals or ideas) but offers the sandbox feel of being able to do and pursue what you like, with a vast set of skills and abilities to mix and match, and crafting to go along with it.

When introducing people FROM that game to PG, they wouldn't even play it when there 'wasn't' a price tag -- Now is my argument completely solid based on the opinions of three to four people who I'm friends with? Not at all. Still, it shows that even as people who like the ideas of PG - I, and they too, agree that paying to 'test' something is just kind of bad. Maybe I will come back when the game fully launches, maybe I won't. Not really sure. I just have a gut feeling it's going in a direction that could potentially be very bumpy (Which I'm sure the PG staff are entirely prepared for).

All in all, I like PG. I love the concept of it, I love the skill systems, I like the aspect that it doesn't guide people. But typically when stuff hits early access with lots of unfinished, unpolished, somewhat buggy content - It gets rejected. Though that belief stems from my own personal view that early access is typically just dumped into by companies to display a half-finished project to generate cash for development or just set up to BE cash grabs.

Regardless, good luck with the launch. Honestly I hope it goes well and smooth - but I won't be purchasing it unless my drive comes back to play. I just hope other people who do purchase it are satisfied with what they 'expect' to get.

P.S. Not entirely sure where the Final Fantasy comment came from. The Steam crossover on this forums is broken - It might say I'm playing it but that was quite a while ago. But to draw comparisons, it is relatively 'cheap' compared to most games and does offer a plethora of content without bugs. (From my own experience). Though it doesn't fill the need or want for openworld, sandbox - skillbased systems with crafting. At least not to a hardcore degree.

[Kwik]

Any ETA on Steam? I have been looking but still not seen it. I will be getting it ASAP as soon as I see it anyway lol

[Mechant]

If you are not familiar with Steam dear Game Developers of PG this also addressees to all PG players, I have been using steam past 10 years and I will give you a hint you should never ever ignore this.
Reviews in steam are very important they are the key, it is very crucial to have a positive reviews on the store page or else people wont even bother buying or playing your game. It could be very unfair because some people are just hater, and they will probably criticize the graphics but that's not very important the real problem is the bugs or glitches will heavily impact your reviews a lot ! It really doesn't matter if the version is Beta Alpha or PreAlpha or anything. People will be focused on that small obvious mistake and give a negative review. So if you really want your game to success, I suggest you and other players to write a detailed recent review, polish your game when I see an orange colored review or a low % in any game on steam I always start reading the reviews so do most of the steam users. Make sure to vote up all good reviews. I am not worried but if the game is successful reviews will be positive anyway.

Oh again make sure to mass advertise the steam release, on reddit especially MMORPG section.

[Panties]

If you are not familiar with Steam dear Game Developers of PG this also addressees to all PG players, I have been using steam past 10 years and I will give you a hint you should never ever ignore this.
Reviews in steam are very important they are the key, it is very crucial to have a positive reviews on the store page or else people wont even bother buying or playing your game. It could be very unfair because some people are just hater, and they will probably criticize the graphics but that's not very important the real problem is the bugs or glitches will heavily impact your reviews a lot ! It really doesn't matter if the version is Beta Alpha or PreAlpha or anything. People will be focused on that small obvious mistake and give a negative review. So if you really want your game to success, I suggest you and other players to write a detailed recent review, polish your game when I see an orange colored review or a low % in any game on steam I always start reading the reviews so do most of the steam users. Make sure to vote up all good reviews. I am not worried but if the game is successful reviews will be positive anyway.

Oh again make sure to mass advertise the steam release, on reddit especially MMORPG section.

This is so pragmatic, I love it!

[Tagamogi]

Gervase - I'm a bit late, but thanks for your detailed response. I appreciate you actually taking the time to try the game again and clarify what's bothering you. I can't exactly say that you are wrong about some things, it's just that they aren't things that are important to me and I'm having fun...

Which brings us right back to how to price a game based on one person's idea of fun. :p I can't really be objective here, obviously. In my opinion, the gameplay in PG is very strong and it is a more fun game than many games that try to cover up their lack of substance with the latest pretty graphics (which will be outdated again in a few months anyway). Whether enough people on Steam agree with me ... we'll see.

[Karamasha]

Silvonis are you planning on giving out the pledge rewards during the steam release?

[Crissa]

Karamasha

We aren't yet rolling out any of the pre-order benefits (such as horses, titles, special items, or VIP features). Some of those features are still a long way off, while others will be coming soon. But before we roll out anything, we want to make sure we've got your data right.
So anyhow...

[Citan]

No package features will be rolled out in the next month or so. The plan is for pledge rewards to be rolled out during beta -- after the game is on Steam but before it leaves "Steam early access". The features will be rolled out when they're ready in regular game updates. There's no exact timeline. Some features, such as player titles, are close to completion and I expect they'll arrive in a few months. Others, such as housing, aren't even started yet.

Since we haven't finished coding them, I should also include this disclaimer: it's possible that certain pledge-reward features may not be available until the game officially goes live, for logistical reasons.

For pledge rewards that include VIP time, we'll give you some control over when that VIP time starts -- either during beta or when the game leaves early access.

[Karamasha]

No package features will be rolled out in the next month or so. The plan is for pledge rewards to be rolled out during beta -- after the game is on Steam but before it leaves "Steam early access". The features will be rolled out when they're ready in regular game updates. There's no exact timeline. Some features, such as player titles, are close to completion and I expect they'll arrive in a few months. Others, such as housing, aren't even started yet.

Since we haven't finished coding them, I should also include this disclaimer: it's possible that certain pledge-reward features may not be available until the game officially goes live, for logistical reasons.

Thank you so much for such detailed information, you guys are the best!


For pledge rewards that include VIP time, we'll give you some control over when that VIP time starts -- either during beta or when the game leaves early access.

That's very generous of you, im not sure if i really want to activate my VIP during beta/early access.


Karamasha

So anyhow...

I have no idea how i missed that post, i guess you're facepalming right now.

[Crissa]

I have no idea how i missed that post, i guess you're facepalming right now.That's okay, the thread is long now, and Citan tries to be proactive but doesn't always get to answer so I figured I knew where the answer was ^-^

[slartybartfast]

Early VIP start ! COOL! that would solve a lot of my problems, could get mules tidied up before release nice idea citan !

[Citan]

A quick update on the timeline: We've decided to delay "pushing the button" on Steam by a week. I've made a couple of breakthroughs in optimization and bug-fixing that will make a notable difference, so I want to put out one more game update before we kick it off. (That game update will probably happen on Monday.)

[Sheawanna]

Sounds great Citan .

[Roekai]

i just wanted to say i still remember that time i accidentally deleted my ring and you gave it back to me Silvonis.

you saved me from a rage quit that night, bless your heart. i was SO fucking mad. so mad. manic mad.

also, for the record - Picard > Sisko > Kirk > Janeway. So it was written.

[Gardum]

I just updated the game and played it. About the movement it self. I would say rather.. clunky may be the wrong word? It feels awkward at times moving around. Especially if jumping, turning, etc. It's a combination of the movement it self, the animations, and the sound. It feels awkward at times. (But I did take note of the extensive options for turning and other movement, so props there.)

I personally had to go read up on the wiki more about Augmentation and Transmutation. While I'm sure working with it hands on would make it much more clear, I get the general idea of it. It still has the process of RNG with some items and, as you said "Blowing the money" to eventually get what you want, is kind of "Okay-ish" in my opinion.

Druids just sadden me a bit. It's like we get a 'travel form', our titles, and are required to do these world events (If those still happen, or are a thing) but it is indeed very underwhelming for 'taking on the responsibility' of one. I think druids should be given more tools to operate with given their 'vows' so to speak.

By the dailies I mean something that is entirely optional and doesn't pop up on your screen on every daily log in. These can be random or generated tasks that would be listen from a town leader / bailiff just for extra work, experience, or gear for those of us who just want something 'to do' while getting some form of progression.

As with the cheating bit, as I stated. It was someone I knew who had done it - but it wasn't for the purpose of playing the game. They got off the tutorial island, did some random stuff here and there for ten to fifteen minutes. Then decided to see if the game had anti-cheat. It doesn't. They were very easily able to speed hack around the game. Shortly after, they just stopped playing. The game didn't engage them, or they didn't engage it (Which ever you'd like to think), the general animations and graphics of the gear and the characters was 'dull' to their opinion (Which I agree with), and they didn't like the idea of knowing the game had no means of anti-cheat. Though I would hope this is remedied when it goes onto Steam. Admins, mods, and players can't always be there to see this happening.

This was more of 'Should I be having fun?' when trying to gauge the games ability to be played. I of course (When playing PG a lot) -did- have fun. But at this point I just lack the drive to want to play. I feel as if I've hit a wall, can't really progress solo anymore (Which is of my own making) and generally don't enjoy the grind of some things with my limited time (Again, my own issue not so much the games). I feel I'd give PG more time if things were a bit more engaging, quirky, and solely focused on the idea of puzzles, using your wit, etc. etc.

In the end, both in response to Tagamogi and just the PG community and staff in general - I really do enjoy the game. I just can't play it right now as I have no drive to, and I most likely won't be picking it up when it comes onto Steam. I don't feel like it's ready. One of the biggest things is for me is that I personally dislike not having my friends to play with on this game, but they lost interest after the tutorial island. I did to, to some degree. But stuck it out to immerse my self and dig deeper. I think if the game had more stuff that mimicked the tutorial island - I'd find my self still playing.

I'm sure plenty of people will swear up and down that the game is full of such things, which I don't doubt.. but in my experience I've only found less and less. It's mainly just been reduced to grinding and just killing things for me.

The next few bits aren't meant to hammer at PG because of 'bad graphics'. I'm actually quite okay with the art style and the way things look. It's just in the manner they're done in is what bothers me, and the.. 'condition' of some.

https://i.imgur.com/wAnsPJO.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y73QB7U2GiI&feature=youtu.be

Hey mate, was just reading your whinge list.
Not sure if you know as it doesn't show by your comments that the game is in Alpha ? You do know what Alpha testing means yes ?

The whole idea is to submit bugs and make suggestions.
Stick balance where it belongs as I didn't come to this game to play another WoW.
AC had no balance, it was skill driven and a level 1 could kill a level 60 Rav if he was buffed, maybe not first shot or hit but once you did hit then bingo.

We have more then enough games that are balanced to the point it makes no difference which class you pick as you only need to hit three buttons and hope you hit them faster than the other person.

So much crying by children that couldn't use their brain to realise what skill means that they have to bow down to pressure from players and bring out the Nerf stick.

The whole idea in most games and the reason they have multiple classes is that certain classes are designed to be dominant over others and so forth that if you play a Mage class and try to kill something resistant to magic then tough cookie, you die.

Instead we have players like you that cry long enough and get enough friends that won't stay and play anyway control how the game ends up and then leave as it's a crap game like every other you people play for a bit and kill.

Lets have games like AC and PG that not ever y class is the same, where if I play for 5 years my Toon is stronger than the one you power levelled in three days .

In the first week i started playing this game I heard a member of my Guild start talking about OP, I responded to him quite firmly that we have enough games destroyed lets let this game be developed how the PG team want it to be not how temporary players that come break and run away want it.
My friends and I finally found a game that is skill based and WoW players want to kill it as they aren't as powerful by their choices or effort and therefore it's the games fault and not their lack of ability to play.

I for one don't play Alphas expecting to keep anything as all major games in the past have wiped at release or a couple weeks before and I look forward to that time as that is to me and my friends when the game finally starts and we can create our Toons for good.

I say bring on a wipe when ever it's needed and I look forward to when I can create my characters that will stay till the day I stop playing the game.

[srand]

Gardum, your post is out of line.

This forum is not a place for personal attacks, baiting, or sniping - it's a place to discuss and share helpful feedback. We use the forum to get a more nuanced feel for things and so it is very important to us that players are comfortable posting here. (And we don't particularly want to wade through an angry mess of a forum either.)

Your feedback is really valuable to us; you are a good play-tester and a great resource and we want to hear more from you! Just leave out statements like the following, please. (Although I am quoting a couple of bits that are particularly problematic within the context of your post, I would ask that neither you nor anyone else respond to the examples in this thread. I do not want to derail this discussion any further.)



So much crying by children that couldn't use their brain to realise what skill means that they have to bow down to pressure from players and bring out the Nerf stick.
[...]
Instead we have players like you that cry long enough and get enough friends that won't stay and play anyway control how the game ends up and then leave as it's a crap game like every other you people play for a bit and kill.


Now, let's drop this side quest and get back to the useful discussion!

[Gardum]

Gardum, your post is out of line.

This forum is not a place for personal attacks, baiting, or sniping - it's a place to discuss and share helpful feedback. We use the forum to get a more nuanced feel for things and so it is very important to us that players are comfortable posting here. (And we don't particularly want to wade through an angry mess of a forum either.)

Your feedback is really valuable to us; you are a good play-tester and a great resource and we want to hear more from you! Just leave out statements like the following, please. (Although I am quoting a couple of bits that are particularly problematic within the context of your post, I would ask that neither you nor anyone else respond to the examples in this thread. I do not want to derail this discussion any further.)



Now, let's drop this side quest and get back to the useful discussion!

I apologise for my remarks.

I will keep responses in future as non personal , we lose a little tack as we get older and type first and think after ;)

Keep up the great work

[srand]

Nope, Gervase, we're not going to do that. Since I would rather not lock this thread I have instead deleted your post and locked you from the thread. Send me a PM if you have questions.

[Alexander DeLarge]

Any update on a new date? It'd be much easier to manage my install using my limited SSD space using a Steam install so I'm just waiting on that.

[Silvonis]

Any update on a new date? It'd be much easier to manage my install using my limited SSD space using a Steam install so I'm just waiting on that.

We don't have an exact day to announce, but it's currently going through the Steam process and we are expecting that to be complete this upcoming week.

[Crissa]

awol_lsd Since we're nowhere near getting out of Beta, as Alpha has just ended, I doubt there's an answer yet.

[Silvonis]

i was just linked this thread, so sorry for late reply to it ;) but uhm... so favor is going to be wiped? i remember way back before (might be remembering wrong though) that it was "undecided but probably not" so you decided to wipe favor for sure?...

We've never said that we wouldn't wipe favor and as per the FAQ, "That said, we will be wiping some aspects of your character including but not limited to: items, currency, NPC favor levels, and favor-quests."

[Mikhaila]

I think the devs are being generous in letting us keep skills and recipes. Most games wipe entirely at full release. We get to keep the most important part, I'm fine with that.

Favor represents top price paid, storage, money pool available, and access to many things. I think the economy will be much more robust with the wipe and everyone struggling a bit. It means less of a have and have-nots scenario.

[Longtooths]

However, can you imagine how crowded the beginning locations will be to gather favor items? Not to mention a new person will not even have a chance...

[alleryn]

However, can you imagine how crowded the beginning locations will be to gather favor items? Not to mention a new person will not even have a chance...

meh gems are the best favor items in general, mabye some will be contested but surveying doesn't work that way

[Mikhaila]

However, can you imagine how crowded the beginning locations will be to gather favor items? Not to mention a new person will not even have a chance...

It will be chaos for everyone for a few days, new and old alike, but the higher level characters will be off to other zones immediately. Surveying, and skinning are the two best favor items early on. The first doesn't have competition, and it's actually easier to survey when any critter in a zone is dead in 5 seconds :) Elt/serb/serbhills will be packed at first, but by the end of the day there will be people hunting in ilmari, rahu, and kur.